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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 7, 2017 6:48:20 GMT -6
Sometimes when commenting I run behind the comments made by others. At least we can say we are breathing life back into this board.
Good job to all
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Mar 7, 2017 7:29:03 GMT -6
Hi AZ
It's obvious that you haven't been there or you wouldn't make such an error. Indians would have to cross at ford A or they would move to the bluffs. Benteen placed himself between the Indians on the bluffs and the pack train. The Indians retreated. So just how close do you think the Indians were to the pack train at any time until they were surrounded on Reno Hill. There is no way that force of Indians were going to go across Ford A and get to the pack train which was climbing out of Reno Creek and moving toward Reno Hill. The train was spread out over 3 miles and even when closed up must have covered a mile and it was slow moving so no chance of outrunning any Indians.The escort might see off small bands but not serious numbers. It could not expect any help from Benteen as he was 7 miles distant. The Indians defeated Custer's 5 companies,Reno's 3 companies and saw off Benteen's demonstration on Weir Point. Benteen knew their capibility for as you know he said to Custer "should we not keep the command together?". Why did he not apply this to his own area of responsibility? You supply excuse after excuse to support your view. The army functions by drills not exceptions, nothing is left to chance, safety precautions are de rigurue. You argue against communication without which there is no command and control.
Seems to me that you are suggesting that McDougall was not competent as an Indian fighter and would not observe any approaching Indians. If Mc dougal waited until he observed approaching Indians he was toast. He needed a precise situation report from Benteen with suggested maneuver options. He got nothing from that quarter.
I think you must want Benteen to accompany the pack train which means that Reno is wiped out and the Indians have the high ground above Benteen and the slow moving pack train. All that was required was communication.
Custer was not engaged at the time of sending Martin. Just what do think Benteen could share with McDougall with Martin telling him they are "skedaddling". Come on big village bring packs ps bring pacs
"make the best available decision What is the best "available decision"? As it is trotted out here to cover everything from neglience to accepting defeat, there must be a regulation for it.
Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 7, 2017 7:46:01 GMT -6
Hi AZ
I think "He had placed Keogh's battalion in position to aid the approach of Benteen" needs some looking at. Since I am not an officer I would address this as an enlisted man and a shooter. So if you believe that it would take 3 companies to assist Benteen that would suggest there was a huge problem observed after sending a single messenger Martin who was told he come back if safe. I actually don't believe any such thing. I'm just using it [as it forms part of the Ford D scenario which is accepted by many]to demonstrate that Custer had a more complete picture of the situation than Benteen. You must allow for the CO having made a decision to by pass Reno and stick with the mission.
Since this is hypothetical we will never know but what I do know is that standing across MTC even with my own rifle I could do nothing to support an attack on the pack train but be able to observe it at a distance I see the pack train taking a position with Reno.
Cheers Richard
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Post by fred on Mar 7, 2017 9:52:21 GMT -6
Sometimes when commenting I run behind the comments made by others. At least we can say we are breathing life back into this board. I agree. Plus, it is always good to have a contrarian like "wild" here. Otherwise it becomes nothing more than a feel-good society. Even though he is always wrong [ < G > ] "wild" keeps you thinking and that is the most important thing of all. We can never know enough to think we know everything. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 7, 2017 12:48:57 GMT -6
Hi Fred You are a soldier , officer and sometimes gentleman .You know precisely what I'm getting at here. BENTEEN HATES CUSTER , HE DOES NOT TRUST HIM FURTHER THAN HE COULD THROW HIM. And he is justified in this. This man will get us all killed. So he sulks his way to the LBH. His performance can be defended by entry level barrack room law. When he arrives at Reno hill and halts, supposedely to aid Reno but as much in exasperation he sees the state of Reno's command and is now convinced that any further action will result in disaster.He pulls the plug on the mission.And he is right if you apply civilian reasoning. But this is the military with a hierarchy, a system of command and control,discipline,an oath, a code, all to ensure that such emotional personal decisions never happen. Sure there is a price to be paid but in the whole the military system is the only tried nd trusted method in the field of brutality. I doubt very much if Benteen's LBH style of management is on the military decision making course at West Point except perhaps as a prime example of a disfunctional command and control system under strain. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 7, 2017 17:04:03 GMT -6
If Mc dougal waited until he observed approaching Indians he was toast. He needed a precise situation report from Benteen with suggested maneuver options. He got nothing from that quarter.
I think you have gone past comical now. The only thing Benteen knows is what Kanipe told him, the Martin note, and Martini stating the Indians are skedaddling. So please show what you think Benteen would put in this precise situation report. He has no idea where 8 companies are located.
So give us an example of what you think a precise situation report would look like. I think from your comments that you want Benteen's battalion to remain with the pack train since precise situation report does nothing for the pack train.
Thanks for your efforts
Steve
Here is mine
No Indians in SFRC and Noname Creek. Hope Kanipe is doing well with the pack train. Carry on with what you started to do from the divide.
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Post by wild on Mar 7, 2017 17:50:27 GMT -6
Hi AZ
So give us an example of what you think a precise situation report would look like. Come on be quick bring packs big village ps bring packs. I do not intend to communicate with you any further,find your own way,speed is at your discretion, expect no support. ps keep sharpe look out for Indians. Estimate 3000. Col Bnteen Co Packs
Cheers Richard
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lens
New Member
Posts: 24
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Post by lens on Mar 7, 2017 22:19:43 GMT -6
I am a newbie and still learning. I might as well jump in with both feet. Richard, I will grant, from what I have read, Benteen had no love for Custer for many reasons perhaps reaching back to the Civil War. I will go so far as to say that he probably would not be the one to reach down if Custer was hanging off a cliff by his finger tips. The problem I have with condemning Benteen for his actions, and I grew up thinking he was a petulant jerk off reinforced by the movie Son of the Morning Star where he looked like a spoiled escapee from a Boy Band, what a god awful wig. Benteen may have hated Custer but Custer and his clique are not the only ones out there. Benteen was a good officer in the Civil War, from what I have read. Aldo from what I have read the military back then as now everything follows you, probably more so back then. Benteen knew what ever happened there would follow him for life, and it did. I do not think how ever much he hated Custer, that he would knowingly leave all the rest of the men to die. I do not know if he realized what had happened and knew he could could not have any influence in the outcome or like I read somewhere was actually suprised to not see him riding up the next day. Sending out a messenger, He could hear shooting in the direction he would have to send such messenger. Hell just shoot the guy in the perimeter and save the horse, guns and ammo.
AZ Ranger, I was listening to Marty Robbins while I was tying up some Blue Wing Olive emergers and scuds, Big Iron came on. Maybe Wild is your Texas Red.
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Post by wild on Mar 8, 2017 2:36:24 GMT -6
Hi Lens I do not think how ever much he hated Custer, that he would knowingly leave all the rest of the men to die. Agreed. He probably thought as he stated in the RCOI that he thought Custer could look after himself. However he is under orders and regardless of what he thought of Custer he was obliged to follow his orders as far as possible. He pulled the plug on the mission not knowing the bigger picture. As continuely pointed out Custer had placed a battalion to cover his arrival. Welcome and bestwishes Richard
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 8, 2017 8:21:00 GMT -6
Wild, Custer placing a battalion to cover Benteen's arrival is pure speculation on your part, totally unsupportable by any facts whatsoever. You also assume without proof that the Martini note meant for Benteen to come to Custer's location, which was unknown to everyone but Custer and the Indians. Come on, man!
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Post by dave on Mar 8, 2017 9:25:10 GMT -6
Lens No one and I mean no one could hold a grudge like Benteen. He lived a hard life, split from family,loss of children on the frontier and being under a man he detested nor respected.
Your comment: "Benteen had no love for Custer for many reasons perhaps reaching back to the Civil War. I will go so far as to say that he probably would not be the one to reach down if Custer was hanging off a cliff by his finger tips."
Is far from the truth! For precisely all the reasons listed for his hatred of GAC he would have risked his life to save the man. Benteen's complex character would compel him to risk it all to save a comrade the very charge he held against Custer for Elliott's loss at Washita River.
Congratulations on an excellent post! Well written and thought out presentation. Regards Dave
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lens
New Member
Posts: 24
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Post by lens on Mar 8, 2017 10:28:50 GMT -6
Thank you Dave, I had not considered the Elliott part of the equation. I can see Benteen doing everything he could to not be associated with that kind of behavior. If you think about it we see the same type of behavior every day in the home or workplace. Negative behavior examples that mold the way others behave. If I remember right Benteen felt Custer did it again with Reno. What is the consensus on when Benteen realized that Custer and the men with him was annihilated? What was decided after the visit to Weir Point? I have not read this much since school..
Len
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Post by wild on Mar 8, 2017 13:07:39 GMT -6
Hi Colt Custer placing a battalion to cover Benteen's arrival is pure speculation on your part, totally unsupportable by any facts whatsoever. You also assume without proof that the Martini note meant for Benteen to come to Custer's location, which was unknown to everyone but Custer and the Indians. Come on, manOf course it is pure spectulation and totally unsupportable.... it is part of Fred's Ford D theory.If you read my post you would see that I don't believe Custer had a chance to do anything. I said I thought he was beyond help at least 20 minutes before Benteen could have come to his aid. BUT BENTEEN DID NOT KNOW THAT. Benteen knew nothing and took the decision to pull the plug on the mission without checking. I'm using that section of the Ford D Theory to show that it was a possibility . You have mistakenly accused me of other inaccuracies without reading my posts. You also assume without proof that the Martini note meant for Benteen to come to Custer's location, which was unknown to everyone but Custer and the Indians. Come on, man!Benteen was obliged to report to Custer and the trail left by 200 horses should be easy to follow. Read the posts. Cheers Richard
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 8, 2017 14:04:24 GMT -6
Richard, I do read your posts. But in a previous response to me, you indicated I didn't support my statements about your statements by not pointing out an example. My previous post was illustrating your assumptions being stated as fact when they clearly cannot be factual. That is what I was pointing out.
"He pulled the plug on the mission not knowing the bigger picture. As continuely pointed out Custer had placed a battalion to cover his arrival."
You said "Custer had placed a battalion to cover his arrival". There is no way anyone could know if that was true or false, and logic indicates that was not why 3 companies were found where they were.
You said Benteen pulled the plug on the mission. What was the mission in your opinion? What orders had Benteen been given on the 25th, other than to scout to the left and to pitch into anything he came across, and to notify Custer if he found anything? Martini's note provides some information about the village, but no clear cut instructions on where to come to quickly, only to be quick and bring the packs. Many things have to be assumed by the reader of that note as to what was Custer wanting done, and when you have to assume things about the writer's intent, you are going to be wrong most of the time. Benteen had to make assumptions as has every other person to ever read that damned note. In everyone's case except Benteen, hindsight is available to flavor those assumptions. Benteen only had his experience and visual cues to go on at the time.
About the only thing I can agree with you on is that Benteen didn't know the bigger picture. No one on Reno hill did either.
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Post by wild on Mar 8, 2017 16:17:07 GMT -6
Hi Colt
In short, it's all Benteen's fault. He was just a rotten, dirty, disloyal SOB.
The above is what you have me saying. The following is a statement I posted previously in the discussion.
No Benteen was not responsible for Custer's dimise. So you are obviously not reading my posts.
This is what Fred said re Keogh and Benteen.
He went then to Cemetery Ridge to await Keogh and Benteen. Once united, it is my opinion Custer fully intended to attack across that ford. This is part of the Ford D theory. It is generally accepted on this board as being at least probably and knowing Fred's research and scolarship it is not based on an assumption. I use it as a tool to make a point that Benteen pulled the plug on the mission at a time when he was in information deficiate.
Benteen was under Custer's orders and was obliged to report to him. Simple Finding him as pointed out was catered for by placing a battalion in and around Calhoun hill or any other arrangement. It was Custer's responsibility to reel Benteen in. The keral of this Benteen issue is that Benteen had no faith in his commander to do anything right as per useless recce,crazy note, wrecked battalion Thus he called a halt to further operations. Unfortunately subordinate officers cannot take the law into their own hands.
to be continued
Cheers Richard
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