|
Post by herosrest on Feb 5, 2017 13:40:15 GMT -6
On a nothing tack, Fred, I never realised how many men from almost every company were found on the slope of LSH, I had assumed that the bulk of them would have come from F company, with maybe one or two from E. Very interesting. I have been working on this for some time now. The following is what I figure is a very accurate detailing of where men actually fell. I developed this from a combination of factors, not merely the location of markers. As you can see, it differs considerably from a total of 253 stones one sees there today:
THEORETICAL MARKER PLACEMENTS—
1. Calhoun Coulee: 9 (all C Company) 2. Finley-Finckle Ridge: 17 (all C Company) 3. Calhoun Hill: 11 (all L Company) 4. Swale area: 5 (1, C Company; 4, L Company) 5. Keogh Sector: 65 (7, C Company; 25, L Company; 30, I Company; 3, F Company) 6. West Battle Ridge: 4 (all I Company) 7. Custer/Last Stand Hill: 42 (2, C Company; 4, L Company; 4, I Company; 23, F Company; 1, E Company; 8, HQ) 8. North of Last Stand Hill: 1 (HQ) 9. South Skirmish Line: 9 (1, L Company; 4, F Company; 3, E Company; 1, HQ) 10. Cemetery Ridge: 6 (all E Company) 11. Cemetery Ravine: 5 (all F Company) 12. Deep Ravine: 28 (all E Company) 13. Basin environs: 3 (2, F Company; 1, HQ) 14. Off reservation: 5 (Brown [F] in village; Dose [HQ] Deep Coulee; Foley [C] Luce-Nye complex; Butler [L] Luce-Nye complex; Kellogg [HQ] in the ravine leading to Ford D, northwest of the ford [formerly known as Crazy Horse Ravine].) Total: 210
Best wishes, Fred. Custer fell upon the highest point of the field; and around him, within a space of five rods square, lay forty-two men and thirty-one horses. Lt. JAS. H. Bradley, 7th inf. The Helena Daily Herald, Saturday, July 15, 1876. fred may be one out, on his count. Robert Patterson-Hughes gave numbers on the dead men and horses with Custer, but as hearsay which he amended during writing his 'Exceedingly bad generalship' letter dated 30th June, 1876. Lt. Hughes' letter and sketch.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 5, 2017 13:48:21 GMT -6
To be honest William, I have known a lot of the members of this board for years now and the last thing I would do is try and change some ones opinion over something, but I have mentioned this in a number of posts going back a while now and I do feel that if you look at Custer and the type of man he was then I would expect him and his five companies to be on an attack mission and not to pull up short and split.
You see I have not got the experience in military aspects, or on this battle as some of you have, but to me there was two attacking battalions in Custer and Reno, Reno was sent to attack in one direction and Custer went to attack further north.
Try and recall how Custer thought that Reno should have followed the Indians earlier when he was sent out on a scout ordered by Terry, now that is what kind of a man Custer was, now this same officer who knows that a part of his own regiment is already engaged in action in the valley, suddenly decides to halt and leave the rump of his battalion on a ridge line and take off on a scout, hmm..I don’t know.
Now this is not a direct stab at anyone because those who know me know that I wouldn’t do that, but I have always thought that this does not sound like Custer at all, as he took the largest battalion in the regiment with him for a reason and that was to attack.
|
|
|
Post by dave on Feb 5, 2017 18:34:11 GMT -6
montrose Well said! Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by shan on Feb 6, 2017 4:46:45 GMT -6
First of all, thanks to tubman13, Steve and Fred for putting me right.
Looking at your list of who fell where Fred, opens up yet few questions.
If we take the 3 F company men who you list as being found in the Keogh sector, I'm presuming that they must have been found up towards the Northern extremity of that sector, otherwise they would have been swimming against the tide so to speak. On the other hand, for those who choose to believe in the North /South theory, should they have been found more towards the Southern end, then they might just provide a little indicator that there might be something in it. Personally, I'm not a fan.
The other thing that intrigued me about that list, was just how far some of the men of C company got. I suppose it should come as no surprise that one was found in the Swale, but the seven in the Keogh sector, and the two on LSH, indicates to me: along with the number of L company men who made it into those areas, that most of these men must have managed to remain mounted.
Montrose, thanks for your kind words. While It's true I've become a watcher ~~ or should that be lurker? rather than a contributor, I do this merely because I have very little to contribute. Now I say that not out of false modesty, but because, like the proverbial parasite, I tend to feed off all those like your good self, who actually get down amongst the evidence and do all the hard work. For which many thanks.
David
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 6, 2017 6:56:26 GMT -6
If we take the 3 F company men who you list as being found in the Keogh sector, I'm presuming that they must have been found up towards the Northern extremity of that sector, otherwise they would have been swimming against the tide so to speak. On the other hand, for those who choose to believe in the North /South theory, should they have been found more towards the Southern end, then they might just provide a little indicator that there might be something in it. Personally, I'm not a fan. The other thing that intrigued me about that list, was just how far some of the men of C company got. I suppose it should come as no surprise that one was found in the Swale, but the seven in the Keogh sector, and the two on LSH, indicates to me: along with the number of L company men who made it into those areas, that most of these men must have managed to remain mounted. David, Please do not take that list as definitive!!!!! Less than 50% of those men were identified, so many of the placements are arbitrary. For example, only one man was ID'ed in the swale and he was from L Company. The F Company men are somewhat, though less so, arbitrary as well. I have done enough work to be able to come up with a specific number-- 210-- that is definitive, but even the paired markers may have their flaws and are subject to revision. When you do the numbers and read enough about the markers, you will see many authors claim 20± men from the besieged C, I, and L companies reached LSH, but I have found little or no basis for such claims. I can identify 11 (I believe that was the number without checking my notes) who did make it there, but no more. So in order to make the numbers work paired markers must be eliminated and we then have to revert to whatever accounts we have that claim activity during the fight. There are at least two Indian accounts claiming mounted troops went over the crest of LSH and into the Keogh Sector. Based on timing, those were, in all likelihood, F Company men. When we deduct the known names from the list, we are left with X-number and from those, I chose-- again, arbitrarily-- names to place at those points. The remarkable thing about that whole exercise... and it took me a number of days to complete it... it worked out quite well, especially since I had the number 210 to work with. In fact, it worked almost as neatly as my timing study you see (or not) in Strategy. Overall, I think it is things like that giving me the most pleasure in this whole exercise: when you have that so-called ah-ha!! moment, knowing your methodology is sound and the pieces fit so snugly. As for those, what, two, C Company men, it does not surprise me they got that far, not with all the confusion, dust, smoke, etc. I think I would have been more surprised had no one from "C" made it that far. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Feb 6, 2017 7:21:44 GMT -6
DucemusThere has been consideration of duration for the demise of the five company strike led by Custer and it was very likely, over very quickly. However, were that not so and the tidy minded Khulmanesque type thinking of destruction in tidy arranged formation is deployed, twisted perhaps with Marquis's injection of self destructing despair; then an interesting minor significance is groups of company horse holders, each approaching ten to dozen or so men, scattered willy nilly to rear or flank of their units and out of range of direct gunfire, under cover. Since those troops were the hostiles' prime interest with each man guarding at least four horses, it is not surprising that horse holders turned up everywhere across the field. link A further aspect of the led horses is return to their companies when coming under threat. 1876 SOP on this is....... difficult to come by but you get threatened mounts back to their commanders, pronto. So, there might have been led horses galloped to the perceived safety of company lines, pursued hotly by hostiles, right into the company lines. Re-reading Joseph White Bull in this light, presents a slightly different fog of war. He dismounted a horse holder? I seem to remember reference by White Bull to bugle's blowing before one of his mounted bravery things. Blowing what, he did not know. Those who model five companies fighting as platoons - love chaos! White Bull's MAP.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Feb 6, 2017 11:27:18 GMT -6
I imagine horseholding ranked somewhat lower in the scheme of things than returning fire. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 6, 2017 11:54:33 GMT -6
I imagine horseholding ranked somewhat lower in the scheme of things than returning fire. Cheers Hi Richard Only to artillery and infantry would a horse holding rank that low. No on wants to run to the horses and find their horse is missing. The horse was a partner also and not just transportation. Some had better partners than others. Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 6, 2017 11:55:43 GMT -6
Shan,. I am happy you are posting again. Been a long time. The north to south theory is very flimsy, right up there with the world is flat; or the sun revolves around the earth. If asked, I will explain why. But there are hundreds of posts proving this theory false. I find this battle very simple, easier than any fight I was involved in. But this battle has an emotional element: where individual posters have value laden opinions, based on their own self worth. So disproving a ludicrous hypothesis is also attacking other posters evaluations as to their value as a human being. SO a weird board. Happy to discuss theory. Will You must be feeling a little better. Good Now can you share what you really think? Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 6, 2017 11:57:40 GMT -6
Will
Where do you think that Custer wanted the pack train to be located?
Regards
Steve
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Feb 6, 2017 12:23:44 GMT -6
AZ,
Thanks for your posts.
I think it is best to differentiate between where Custer best parked Keogh until Benteen was visible, and how Keogh was then intended to deploy.
Looking at Custer's past record, I have few concerns about a 2 company probe to Ford D before concentrating his 8 company assault force with ammunition reserves and deciding how to finally deploy for assault.
WO
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Feb 6, 2017 12:28:35 GMT -6
WO Last year Donahue took us on field trip out BRE (battle ridge extension) and to a location where a casing matched firearm tool marked casing in the Calhoun area. I get there is many ways for that to occur but at least one is option is that troopers were their and moved back to the Calhoun area. Also it was pointed out that picture taken of kneeling soldiers was positioned on CR by an Indian battle participant firing toward BRE. There is a number of Indian artifacts in this location which included the case matching tool marks for a firearm at Calhoun. So is it possible that the Indians moved to a location on BRE occupied by soldiers with Keogh and Calhoun. One thing I intend to find out is the location on Calhoun where the matching case was found. We could also see down the drainage where the new entrance road is located and the old road where Donahue had a picture taken from the new road and toward the old road. The Kellogg markers is seen in that picture. It is along the BRE side of the drainage. The Benteen map shows a trail across the CR location. Also labeled M if I recall correctly is a line of triangles indicating dead. I don't think that ford B was that important to preventing Indians crossing anywhere. The final location of Calhoun could not support Benteen and especially the pack train in any manner from attack before entering MTC. One of the rides we took was with the Real Birds and after crossing near ford B we rode up along the bluffs to Weir. There is nothing soldiers on Calhoun could do to slow such a movement. There is also Thompsons ford which is not even visible from the Calhoun area. The Indians could attack the pack train long before it reached MTC. Terry who went on our first Benteen Scout ride was a Keogh fan and always thought that Keogh was stopped moving from N to S. I wasn't as convinced but I could not exclude it. Myself I believe recon time for two small companies was over when Custer opened the battle by sending Reno. Thanks for your service Steve AZ, It certainly should have been over, but that is a separate issue! WO
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 6, 2017 12:30:17 GMT -6
Looking at the artifacts and history map of Bonafede it has two Indian locations north of LSH. One with significant Indian cartridges and cases is north and west of cemetery ridge. There are also soldier bullets found in that area. The second Indian cartridges and cases location is on BRE almost to highway 212. There are soldier bullets found around that site and even further toward the Trading Post vicinity.
If you look at the northern Indian location (northwest of cemetery ridge) it is within range of where Donahue has a picture of the Kellogg marker. The marker in the picture is along the old entrance road. The picture was taken from the new and current entrance road at height above the road consistent with a school bus according to Donahue. A school band is the subject of the photographer and the marker and old road are in the background.
Doug Scott suggests that artifacts from around ford D could be in the road bed of the new entrance. He also documented timber along the old river channel that is now not visible.
Although not conclusive there are more artifacts north of LSH than there are at Ford B. The Real Birds claimed to have picked up buckets full of artifacts at Ford B.
So I think Fred would accept the potential for at least two companies to have gone past LSH and if so they had to return from North to South. If you enter the battle at that point in time the observations are north to south.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 6, 2017 12:40:32 GMT -6
WO
I understand that you believe that Benteen was to go to Custer but where do you think Custer wanted the pack train to park?
My problem is that Indians have unlimited access to Benteen and the pack train from Reno Creek before it reaches MTC and even at that point it would be tough to provide cover fire from the soldiers left behind across MTC. Why not send a company to Benteen and the pack train rather then sit somewhere and watch to see if the Indians are smart enough to shoot the ammunition carrying mules?
Regards
AZ
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Feb 6, 2017 13:13:07 GMT -6
WO I understand that you believe that Benteen was to go to Custer but where do you think Custer wanted the pack train to park? My problem is that Indians have unlimited access to Benteen and the pack train from Reno Creek before it reaches MTC and even at that point it would be tough to provide cover fire from the soldiers left behind across MTC. Why not send a company to Benteen and the pack train rather then sit somewhere and watch to see if the Indians are smart enough to shoot the ammunition carrying mules? Regards AZ AZ, Calhoun Hill provides a good vantage point. When Benteen is sighted in the distance, have a company in reserve and ready to ride out? Perhaps from the Swale (good line of sight?) ...? WO
|
|