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Post by fred on Feb 6, 2017 14:27:18 GMT -6
So I think Fred would accept the potential for at least two companies to have gone past LSH and if so they had to return from North to South. If you enter the battle at that point in time the observations are north to south. Steve, Correct. As for sending out a company to meet Benteen, my question is, Why? For what? Benteen couldn't see where the action was? He certainly saw it when atop Weir Peaks. And as for the packs, let's not forget when Custer ordered Benteen and the packs forward he had no idea where he would be going-- other than north-- or what sort of terrain he would be traversing, despite Boyer's presence. I doubt very seriously Custer would have expected Benteen to follow with the packs and I doubt very seriously an officer of Benteen's quality would have slowed down to drag the packs along. I am quite sure Benteen would have waited, made sure the packs were as secure as they could be-- hunkered down-- and then proceeded north to join the rest of the command. Again... Custer's biggest error was proceeding too far north and losing contact and control of his maneuver elements. Best wishes, Fred.
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dgfred
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Post by dgfred on Feb 6, 2017 15:11:51 GMT -6
On a nothing tack, Fred, I never realised how many men from almost every company were found on the slope of LSH, I had assumed that the bulk of them would have come from F company, with maybe one or two from E. Very interesting. David, I have been working on this for some time now. The following is what I figure is a very accurate detailing of where men actually fell. I developed this from a combination of factors, not merely the location of markers. As you can see, it differs considerably from a total of 253 stones one sees there today: THEORETICAL MARKER PLACEMENTS— 1. Calhoun Coulee: 9 (all C Company) 2. Finley-Finckle Ridge: 17 (all C Company) 3. Calhoun Hill: 11 (all L Company) 4. Swale area: 5 (1, C Company; 4, L Company) 5. Keogh Sector: 65 (7, C Company; 25, L Company; 30, I Company; 3, F Company) 6. West Battle Ridge: 4 (all I Company) 7. Custer/Last Stand Hill: 42 (2, C Company; 4, L Company; 4, I Company; 23, F Company; 1, E Company; 8, HQ) 8. North of Last Stand Hill: 1 (HQ) 9. South Skirmish Line: 9 (1, L Company; 4, F Company; 3, E Company; 1, HQ) 10. Cemetery Ridge: 6 (all E Company) 11. Cemetery Ravine: 5 (all F Company) 12. Deep Ravine: 28 (all E Company) 13. Basin environs: 3 (2, F Company; 1, HQ) 14. Off reservation: 5 (Brown [F] in village; Dose [HQ] Deep Coulee; Foley [C] Luce-Nye complex; Butler [L] Luce-Nye complex; Kellogg [HQ] in the ravine leading to Ford D, northwest of the ford [formerly known as Crazy Horse Ravine].) Total: 210 Best wishes, Fred. Thanks for this post... it helps me see things a little 'better'.
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Post by shan on Feb 7, 2017 7:24:15 GMT -6
AZ Ranger,
Having been to the battlefield just the once, must be back in 2003 I suppose, I'm interested in what you had to say about the finds down towards the old entrance road and the trading post. You also mention a photograph that was taken down there showing the Kellog marker, have you any idea where one can get to see this photograph?
thanks David.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 7, 2017 7:42:38 GMT -6
AZ Ranger, Having been to the battlefield just the once, must be back in 2003 I suppose, I'm interested in what you had to say about the finds down towards the old entrance road and the trading post. You also mention a photograph that was taken down there showing the Kellog marker, have you any idea where one can get to see this photograph? thanks David. Hi David My best guess is that the original is in Tucson Arizona but that is only a guess. I am reasonably sure it will appear in Michael Donahue's new book whenever it is published. What I recall of it is angle above a high school marching band down the drainage near the entrance that runs toward the old entrance road and the marker is along side of it. If one envisions the absence of fill material in the new road it is apparent that it is a great travel corridor to and away from ford Ds. Regards Steve
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Post by fred on Feb 7, 2017 10:54:28 GMT -6
You also mention a photograph that was taken down there showing the Kellog marker, have you any idea where one can get to see this photograph? David, Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 7, 2017 12:25:03 GMT -6
WO I understand that you believe that Benteen was to go to Custer but where do you think Custer wanted the pack train to park? My problem is that Indians have unlimited access to Benteen and the pack train from Reno Creek before it reaches MTC and even at that point it would be tough to provide cover fire from the soldiers left behind across MTC. Why not send a company to Benteen and the pack train rather then sit somewhere and watch to see if the Indians are smart enough to shoot the ammunition carrying mules? Regards AZ AZ, What are Benteen's options over where to park McDougall/Mathey and cut out some ammo mules, once they all turn up the bluffs and away from the southern valley fight? Assuming Reno does not retreat into their direction of travel, which we know happened. WO
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Post by wild on Feb 7, 2017 15:14:33 GMT -6
Other than the ammo packs, the pack train was surplus to requirements. The packs are a domestic issue let some scabby 2nd looie look after them . Benteen was under fighting orders if he was a soldier and not a barrack room lawyer he would have taken ammo packs and escort forward at combat speed. Cheers
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dgfred
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Post by dgfred on Feb 7, 2017 15:59:08 GMT -6
Or... the commander could write a note that gave specific orders. Hurry with packs is ambiguous.
Once he reaches Reno... it is obvious that his unit needs help/support first. Custer has almost as many men as both Reno and Benteen combined. If he leaves Reno to try to locate Custer... what happens if Reno is wiped out? Tough spot.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 7, 2017 16:25:10 GMT -6
Other than the ammo packs, the pack train was surplus to requirements. The packs are a domestic issue let some scabby 2nd looie look after them . Benteen was under fighting orders if he was a soldier and not a barrack room lawyer he would have taken ammo packs and escort forward at combat speed. Cheers Wild, I believe that GAC intended that. Cooke's written orders were poorer than a 6 year old. I also believe that GAC envisaged that Benteen could end-up with Reno, dragged into his battle through different scenarios. The loss of the pack train would have campaign logistical implications. WO
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Post by wild on Feb 7, 2017 17:36:53 GMT -6
DGfred
Once he reaches Reno... it is obvious that his unit needs help/support first. Custer has almost as many men as both Reno and Benteen combined. If he leaves Reno to try to locate Custer... what happens if Reno is wiped out? Tough spot. No it is not obvious . For what does he need support ? Reno was pursued and routed by a handful of Indians . With the arrival of Benteen any threat to Reno disolved. And an immediate aggressive advance towards the village by Benteen would see all Indians in the area withdraw to the village and this at a time when Custer was still functioning. By advancing Benteen might just have saved both Custer and Reno. But that would be just too much like thinking and soldiering. Cheers
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Post by wild on Feb 7, 2017 17:46:22 GMT -6
I believe that GAC intended that. Cooke's written orders were poorer than a 6 year old. I agree WO but what reduces men to 6 year olds is emotion and stress and shiit fear. Been there and not even under fire.
The loss of the pack train would have campaign logistical implications. Not if they won and if they lost ditto. Annie way they had some paddly thingy coming up the river to supply Terry. Cheers Richard
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Post by Colt45 on Feb 7, 2017 18:34:26 GMT -6
DGfred Once he reaches Reno... it is obvious that his unit needs help/support first. Custer has almost as many men as both Reno and Benteen combined. If he leaves Reno to try to locate Custer... what happens if Reno is wiped out? Tough spot.No it is not obvious . For what does he need support ? Reno was pursued and routed by a handful of Indians . With the arrival of Benteen any threat to Reno disolved. And an immediate aggressive advance towards the village by Benteen would see all Indians in the area withdraw to the village and this at a time when Custer was still functioning. By advancing Benteen might just have saved both Custer and Reno. But that would be just too much like thinking and soldiering. Cheers I don't think I would call 900+ Indians a handful, especially since Reno had about 140 men tops. The need for support from Benteen was painfully obvious, even to a blind man, and since about half Reno's men were either KIA, MIA, or wounded, Benteen did exactly what he should have done: stablize the situation, assist the superior officer on the scene, consolidate the two battalions, and later, when the situation has stabilized, go find Custer. As dgfred said, Custer had about the same men as Benteen and Reno combined. It's obvious you think Custer died because Benteen and Reno failed him. Custer died due to his own mistakes. He was the overall commander. The blame is his alone for the loss of 5 companies.
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Post by wild on Feb 8, 2017 3:42:28 GMT -6
I don't think I would call 900+ Indians a handful, Read the post colt. I said Reno was pursued by a handful of Indians. If he had been pursued by 900 Indians he would not have made it up the bluffs. When asked at the RCOI where 900 Indians were when he reached Reno Benteen replied about a mile away.
Benteen did exactly what he should have done: stablize the situation, assist the superior officer on the scene, consolidate the two battalions, and later, when the situation has stabilized, go find Custer Discussed ad nauseum...two very distinct schools of thought on this issue. Your scenario fits the passive school of thought.
It's obvious you think Custer died because Benteen and Reno failed him. Custer died due to his own mistakes. He was the overall commander. The blame is his alone for the loss of 5 companies. Custer's blunders do not absolve his senior officers from [to a greater or lessor extenct] their own failures. Regards Richard
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Post by shan on Feb 8, 2017 4:06:10 GMT -6
Hi Fred,
very nice photograph { where is it?} but I'm not sure it is the one that AZ Ranger was referring to.
David
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Post by fred on Feb 8, 2017 6:29:00 GMT -6
very nice photograph { where is it?} but I'm not sure it is the one that AZ Ranger was referring to. David, Maybe I misread what Steve was referring to. This photo is of what used to be called, "Crazy Horse Ravine." It was posted here originally by a fellow named "mulligan." It was shot from the entrance road to the park. It is the route Custer took to Ford D (which is in the upper left part of the picture around the treeline). It is also where Kellogg's body was found by John Gibbon. Best wishes, Fred.
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