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Post by fred on Feb 4, 2017 10:51:58 GMT -6
Fred How much wiggle room is there for Custer to move north and than return south? If CIL move only as far as BRE and then reverse would it fit? Steve, In my opinion, none. First of all, it makes absolutely no sense from a tactical point of view. Second, there is absolutely no archaeology supporting such a move unless you consider "refugees" fleeing from the Keogh-Calhoun maelstrom, and fleeing soldiers is considerably more logical. Most important of all, however, is there is not a single shred, not a single account from any of the Indians who fought there that supports any such back-and-forth movement. The trouble with all this nonsense is in the organization of accounts. Organized properly, Indian accounts support everything I say. That is not me slapping myself on the back; it is simply me reading what the Indians had to say. I have no theories on this; I never had, not from the first day I read about the battle: there were too many conflicting stories, ideas, tales, and theories, and my mind spun reading all the nonsense. Again... and I have stressed this for years: we are very fortunate. We live in an age where we have access to virtually anything we want. Look at all the nonsensical crap this clown "herosrest" posts. You can dig up anything to support any view you want; but that ain't history and it is certainly not the truth. If you take every single account we have, set them up in a chronological sequence, one event following another-- not taken separately-- then set side by side, one man after another and paste them all together, you come up with an almost perfect flow. If you have the interest and have the time and wherewithal to do such, you come up with that flow. That is why I talk about the 260+ "profiles" I have put together; profiles of people who were there; profiles of their contemporaries. I take every single word they said, discard the unimportant, and set the important into a spreadsheet on each individual comment for each individual action or event. At one time I had close to 50 such actions/events, but I culled that down to 37. That has given me a cross-reference system with 984 pages (of spreadsheets), with just under 8,000 lines, and almost 48,000 modules of data, some of which are extraneous, but useful for sourcing. I will give you an example. This is what you would see for the 2nd largest spreadsheet... Incident Title: Battlefield and Bodies… 99 pages, 793 lines (2 of 37) 1. The Trail 2. First Bodies 3. Calhoun Hill 4. Keogh Sector 5. Horses 6. Shape of Last Stand Hill 7. Bodies on Last Stand Hill and the South Skirmish Line 8. George Custer’s Body 9. Deep Ravine 10. Bodies, Burials, and Markers 11. Indian Village 12. Troopers’ Heads 13. Found in Village 14. Standing Tepees 15. Indian Deaths 16. Village Size 17. Reno’s Field 18. Cartridge Cases 19. Nathan Short 20. Who Killed George Custer? 21. Aftermath and Mutilations Every comment made by any of those people profiled pertaining to any of the topics in that "Incident Report" is cross-referenced into those sub-categories. That has created those 99 pages and 793 lines of data. There are 36 more such "reports." One of them deals exclusively with the Custer fight. And that one is the largest with 101 pages, though not quite as many lines. So here we have the advantage over past writers and historians because we have fast computers that can store and sort these things. And when you organize them well, patterns and flows appear much more easily. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 4, 2017 11:11:25 GMT -6
Steve,
Let me clarify that post somewhat.
Time-wise, there is virtually no wiggle room. You would have to extend the numbers and that would not fit with the times and speeds of the Reno-Bentsen column upstream. It would also make Indian time estimates problematic. From my own personal viewpoint, I forced none of the times in Strategy... none!!! I let them set themselves based on reasonable speeds, terrain, and what participants had to say. I realize that seems a little presumptuous, but when you do the thing properly, that's what happens. If I believed, personally, in a north-south flow, I would have to jerry-rig the times and that would invalidate the whole thing. I would wind up like John Gray, forcing my personal theories into something that was incorrect.
There is also a constant disconnect here and on Beth's boards when I was there for that short time regarding the definition of a "north-south battle flow." This is kind of like Richard Fox' idea of "no last stand": semantics.
There was a north-south battle flow from Ford D to Cemetery Ridge to Last Stand Hill. It involved Custer, HQ, and companies E and F.
Keogh, with C, I, and L never moved... other than Harrington's charge in Calhoun Coulee. Anything claiming otherwise would conflict with a whole lot of warrior accounts.
All this nonsense I read about "north-south" conveniently omits or distorts or cherry-picks Indian accounts, some taking those accounts out of context and out of chronological order.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2017 14:30:01 GMT -6
Fred
I am trying figure out how a case from a gun fired (at least unloaded) at the Calhoun location matched a case found at the BRE location. It could be from an Indian recovering a SAA revolver that had been fired at Calhoun location and latter it is at least ejected to the ground at the BRE site which is across from the Cemetery/Admin complex. If case had been consistent with E or F that would be no problem.
Thanks for your help
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2017 14:42:05 GMT -6
From a tactical point of view I agree moving up there and back makes no sense unless they were forced back before carrying out an offensive action at the D fords. I am stuck wondering how anyone could think the pack train could move into MTC and up the other side with ammunition boxes clearly visible. I could see Benteen moving on his own but with the pack train he could not move very fast and would be burdened to protect the ammunition.
Would Custer think his five companies would need ammunition and Reno would not?
Regards
Steve
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Post by fred on Feb 4, 2017 15:44:37 GMT -6
Fred I am trying figure out how a case from a gun fired (at least unloaded) at the Calhoun location matched a case found at the BRE location. It could be from an Indian recovering a SAA revolver that had been fired at Calhoun location and latter it is at least ejected to the ground at the BRE site which is across from the Cemetery/Admin complex. If case had been consistent with E or F that would be no problem. Steve, In one of the more interesting archaeological finds, the Scott/Bleed excavation of 1994 found two clusters of two cartridges each—FS8049 and FS8050 paired; and FS8091 and FS8094 paired—each within one or two meters of each other. “Cases FS8049 and FS8050 matched to a Colt case (FS1605) found in Calhoun Coulee below Greasy Grass Ridge in 1984 (Scott et al. 1984)…. The matching case from 1984 was found nearly one mile from the two 1994 case finds…” [Scott/Bleed, A Good Walk Around the Boundary]. The clusters were found in a small ravine just out of sight of Last Stand Hill; that is the Battle Ridge extension. Douglas Scott wrote Custer, 5 officers, and perhaps 40 EM lay on Custer/Last Stand Hill; 28 names are documented: here are 14 privates: PVT Ygnatz Stungewitz (C) PVT Willis B. Wright (C)PVT Anton Dohman (F) PVT Gustav Klein (F) PVT William H. Lerock (F) PVT Werner L. Liemann (F) PVT Edward C. Driscoll (I) PVT Archibald McIlhargey (I) PVT John E. Mitchell (I) PVT John Parker (I) PVT Francis T. Hughes (L) PVT Charles McCarthy (L) PVT Oscar F. Pardee (aka, John Burke) (L) PVT Thomas S. Tweed (L)Notice the two C Company troopers. They were in Calhoun Coulee. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 4, 2017 15:52:51 GMT -6
From a tactical point of view I agree moving up there and back makes no sense unless they were forced back before carrying out an offensive action at the D fords. I am stuck wondering how anyone could think the pack train could move into MTC and up the other side with ammunition boxes clearly visible. I could see Benteen moving on his own but with the pack train he could not move very fast and would be burdened to protect the ammunition. Steve, You and I have been around long enough to eye-roll at anyone thinking Benteen and/or Reno should have made an attempt to get the packs across Luce and Nye-Cartwright ridges. People who believe that nonsense are just flat-out [... insert pejorative....]. We have only a couple Indian accounts-- maybe three-- alluding to Ford D. In none of those accounts was there any reference to forcing troopers back. And from a timing consideration, there is just about no way the warriors could get any real significant, organized force that far down the river in that early a time. Look at the meager resistance at Ford B. Whatever resistance Custer met at "D" had to be similar to what he met at "B." I am absolutely certain not all those fleeing were women, children, and old folks. (And remember too, "old" was defined as over 35 or 40, so those guys were hardly incapable as fighters.) So I am equally sure there had to have been a fair number of warriors helping these people and protecting them. That is what greeted Custer at "D." Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by shan on Feb 5, 2017 5:09:21 GMT -6
Fred, Steve,
could you clarify for those of us over here on the other side of the pond, who, as in my case, know nothing about guns, and more particularly cartridge cases, whether they be fired or re-used and suchlike in other words, what the ~~ were you both your talking about? Sorry to be a pain but I found your conversation very hard to follow, so, who fired what and where and was it the same person, or had the gun more likely been used by someone else? Impossible to know, I know, but its these small details that intrigue, and bring to individuals more into focus,
On a nothing tack, Fred, I never realised how many men from almost every company were found on the slope of LSH, I had assumed that the bulk of them would have come from F company, with maybe one or two from E. Very interesting.
David
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 5, 2017 7:21:03 GMT -6
Shan,
The find Steve alludes to were empty pistol casings ejected on Battle Ridge Extended(BRE). Those pistol casings, using modern technology, were matched to pistol casings found further south(Calhoun's end location). BRE is between LHH and HWY 212 near the existent Trading Post. Many mention that there are little/no archeological findings at Ford D. That could be because that was where the old road to the park was, there was also a sand and gravel pit located there, Kellog's initial resting place was down in this area. Probably this area would have been the most picked over area as it was closest to the railroad station. Also when the new road was put in dirt from this area was used to make the new road, much like the dirt used from other areas were used for fill, for the road in the area of the Gap Fred mentions in his book.
I am sure that both Steve and Fred can give you more than I have.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Feb 5, 2017 7:30:12 GMT -6
On a nothing tack, Fred, I never realised how many men from almost every company were found on the slope of LSH, I had assumed that the bulk of them would have come from F company, with maybe one or two from E. Very interesting. David, I have been working on this for some time now. The following is what I figure is a very accurate detailing of where men actually fell. I developed this from a combination of factors, not merely the location of markers. As you can see, it differs considerably from a total of 253 stones one sees there today: THEORETICAL MARKER PLACEMENTS— 1. Calhoun Coulee: 9 (all C Company) 2. Finley-Finckle Ridge: 17 (all C Company) 3. Calhoun Hill: 11 (all L Company) 4. Swale area: 5 (1, C Company; 4, L Company) 5. Keogh Sector: 65 (7, C Company; 25, L Company; 30, I Company; 3, F Company) 6. West Battle Ridge: 4 (all I Company) 7. Custer/Last Stand Hill: 42 (2, C Company; 4, L Company; 4, I Company; 23, F Company; 1, E Company; 8, HQ) 8. North of Last Stand Hill: 1 (HQ) 9. South Skirmish Line: 9 (1, L Company; 4, F Company; 3, E Company; 1, HQ) 10. Cemetery Ridge: 6 (all E Company) 11. Cemetery Ravine: 5 (all F Company) 12. Deep Ravine: 28 (all E Company) 13. Basin environs: 3 (2, F Company; 1, HQ) 14. Off reservation: 5 (Brown [F] in village; Dose [HQ] Deep Coulee; Foley [C] Luce-Nye complex; Butler [L] Luce-Nye complex; Kellogg [HQ] in the ravine leading to Ford D, northwest of the ford [formerly known as Crazy Horse Ravine].) Total: 210 Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 5, 2017 8:46:25 GMT -6
Hi Shan
Tom covered it pretty well. Fired cartridge cases have tool marks (metal to metal from harder metal to softer metal) when fired. It is like leaving a finger print. A comparison is made between cartridge cases and they can match, be consistent with, or don't match. Some firearms leave lots of marks. The .45-70 would have a breech face mark, firing pin aperture, firing pin mark, extractor mark, and an ejector mark on the case.
I have had evidence for trials where we have a recovered .22 bullet in a deer and seized the weapon. The bullet even if it matches is sometimes categorized as consistent with. Since there are odds attached to be matched say for example 1:1,000,000 there is chance since there have been that many .22 rifles made of a particular model.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 5, 2017 9:12:14 GMT -6
I guess for me the answer to where Benteen and the pack train were expected to go influences what Custer would do with his 5 companies.
Regards
Steve
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Post by fred on Feb 5, 2017 9:38:13 GMT -6
I guess for me the answer to where Benteen and the pack train were expected to go influences what Custer would do with his 5 companies. Again, look at the context in which that message-note was sent. Custer's command had not fired a single shot. Custer believed Reno was doing precisely what he wanted and Custer was highly pleased. Standing on 3,411, Custer could view virtually the entire upward valley, so he knew there was no trouble up there. Knowing this, he was comfortable recalling Benteen... and having Benteen hurry the packs, if possible. And that is all there is to that note. Nothing more. With Benteen on his way, the entire command would be united again. It is my opinion Custer wanted Benteen to come to him, but I also believe Custer would figure Benteen would do the right thing. Let us also not forget, Martini knew where Custer was. If Benteen had been confused as to where he should go, i.e., into the valley or follow Custer, Martini could direct him. The fact that never happened is incidental. Custer would have expected Reno to be farther north, i.e., into the village, and Benteen would therefore have followed Custer's trail. It fits the criterion of "Simple" and presupposes another: "Flow." Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 5, 2017 9:41:36 GMT -6
Hi Fred, how are you sir.
You know the Tow Moons account, now where on the battlefield would he be when he claimed to have saw this;
I then rode toward my camp, and stopped squaws from carrying off lodges. While I was sitting on my horse I saw flags come up over the hill to the east like that [he raised his finger-tips]. Then the soldiers rose all at once, all on horses, like this [he put his fingers behind each other to indicate that Custer appeared marching in columns of fours]. They formed into three bunches [squadrons] with a little ways between. Then a bugle sounded, and they all got off horses, and some soldiers led the horses back over the hill.
It seems like more than just two small 38 man companies to me, just reading his finger tips to represent the Guidons, and coming from the east sounds like coming from BRE.
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Post by fred on Feb 5, 2017 10:23:01 GMT -6
I then rode toward my camp, and stopped squaws from carrying off lodges. While I was sitting on my horse I saw flags come up over the hill to the east like that [he raised his finger-tips]. Then the soldiers rose all at once, all on horses, like this [he put his fingers behind each other to indicate that Custer appeared marching in columns of fours]. They formed into three bunches [squadrons] with a little ways between. Then a bugle sounded, and they all got off horses, and some soldiers led the horses back over the hill.It seems like more than just two small 38 man companies to me, just reading his finger tips to represent the Guidons, and coming from the east sounds like coming from BRE. This is a very deceiving comment, again, needing to be placed in chronological order with other things Two Moon said. The way you have it posted, followed by comment, takes it out of sequence and therefore context. Unwittingly, you are proving my entire point of "context." Two Moon was a Cheyenne, which places him-- according to his own comment-- in or quite near the northern end of the entire village, probably within his own camp. That means it has nothing to do with BRE and more likely refers to troops way up MTC or even more likely those coming down MTC and those atop the Luce-Butler extension. Here are his comments that preceded the one you high-lighted above: 9. He saw the soldiers fall into the water like buffalo. [Cheyenne Memories, 101] 10. Two Moon claimed Reno’s men were driven up the hills and there met “wagons.” [The Custer Myth, 102] [We know that is not correct!] 11. Another alarm was raised that soldiers were coming to kill the women. [The Custer Myth, 102] ... and here is the comment immediately after... 13. Sioux rode up the ridge on all sides; the Cheyenne went up the left. [The Custer Myth, 103; Custer Catastrophe at the Little Big Horn, 69] [Custer Fight] 14. There was tremendous dust and smoke. [The Custer Myth, 103; Custer Catastrophe at the Little Big Horn, 69] [Custer Fight] These comments pertain to actions prior to anything at or near Ford D. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Feb 5, 2017 13:18:48 GMT -6
Shan,.
I am happy you are posting again. Been a long time.
The north to south theory is very flimsy, right up there with the world is flat; or the sun revolves around the earth.
If asked, I will explain why. But there are hundreds of posts proving this theory false.
I find this battle very simple, easier than any fight I was involved in. But this battle has an emotional element: where individual posters have value laden opinions, based on their own self worth.
So disproving a ludicrous hypothesis is also attacking other posters evaluations as to their value as a human being.
SO a weird board. Happy to discuss theory.
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