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Post by Colt45 on Dec 23, 2016 10:51:50 GMT -6
Thanks Fred. It would have required good eyes, but he could have seen Keogh's folks, though I doubt he could have made out much detail. I know I found it hard to make out much detail when I was last there. And I wasn't looking through dust and gunsmoke.
Best wishes to you and yours in this holiday period.
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Post by Colt45 on Dec 23, 2016 10:53:45 GMT -6
Dan, I too was involved in the Giants game. Way to go Eagles. We Cowboy fans thank you. I am sure we will see the Giants again this year in the post season.
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Post by benteen on Dec 23, 2016 12:17:54 GMT -6
Drats, double drats. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Dec 23, 2016 12:19:37 GMT -6
Dan, I too was involved in the Giants game. Way to go Eagles. We Cowboy fans thank you. I am sure we will see the Giants again this year in the post season. Colt, Congrates. My son is a big Cowboy fan as well. Thats why he is not allowed to visit Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Dec 23, 2016 12:20:04 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your responses, I appreciate them. Rather than respond to each one, I would like to just put my thoughts down and hopefully cover the bases.
I agree with Richard, I dont think Custer retreated anywhere, he was forced back. I also dont believe that Cos I-C-L were with him at the Ford D location.
However, that being said, there are to many good and knowledgeable people who present a strong case that they were with Custer and that it was a N-S battle flow. When Colt added that this opinion fit in with Capt Freds timeline it makes it even more plausible.
Allow me to play devils Advocate. If 5 companies were together and Custer realized he could not assault the Village, I think he had 2 choices
1...Form a defensive position
2...An all out hell bent for leather, breakout.
I dont believe he had the time or man-power to do anything else. I understand the tactic of leap-frogging backward, There could be more but I will use 2 lines A and B, Line A fires and falls back behind line B, then B fires and falls back behind line A etc. But this only works if the enemy is coming from 1 direction. These warriors wee coming at them from all directions. How could anyone provide covering fire for anyone else.
Be Well Dan
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Post by Colt45 on Dec 23, 2016 13:50:46 GMT -6
Dan, What I think happened after the repulse at ford D, was E and F moved back to cemetery ridge and setup for a short defense. E would have been on the south end, F on the north end. You can't put all 5 companys on CR, so I think I company probably pulled back to battle ridge extension and set up to cover the area where the highway and burger joint now stand. C probably setup on I's left flank and L setup on C's left flank.
These 3 would have been setup for the purpose of covering E and F's withdrawal. We know Custer delayed at CR for around 10-15 minutes, which was the major mistake, as it allowed the Indians to take the initiative and begins assaults from ford C and ford D crossings. E found itself getting split from F by enemy action up the draw and that forced E to move to the east toward deep ravine. F company had to retire toward LSH.
All the while this is going on, L pulled back south along the route they had come from, followed by C only a few minutes behind. L hit resistance at calhoun hill and setup a skirmish. When C arrived, it found L's right flank open so they moved to FFR to cover L, believing I, F, and E would be close behind. However, E and F were fully engaged, and I had moved, under heavy fire, most likely, to the east side of battle ridge and were enroute to calhoun hill when they got hit from hostiles on the east side, hostiles that had overrun E company's position, and probably moved through the gap, and by hostiles coming from the calhoun hill area after finishing off C and L.
The reason I think it happened this way is because in order to hold cemetery ridge, you also have to hold battle ridge extension. You can't hold one without holding the other. This requires putting the 5 companies somewhat far apart, but within fire support range. The withdrawal, as outlined, could have worked if it had been initiated immediately, however the delay at CR was their undoing. Too many Indians and not enough troops to fully cover the terrain that needed to be covered.
The distance also prohibited effective command and control of all 5 companys, so as things began unraveling, it became each company for itself. You mentioned Custer could form a defensive position or bail out. He should have bailed out immediately in order to have a chance at a standard practice covered withdrawal. So, I agree with you that he formed a defensive position on terrain not really suited for defense, and began a withdrawal. But due to delay, the withdrawal failed and led to 5 isolated companies fighting, with the possibility that some of the men tried to breakout.
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Post by benteen on Dec 24, 2016 17:01:08 GMT -6
Dan, What I think happened after the repulse at ford D, was E and F moved back to cemetery ridge and setup for a short defense. E would have been on the south end, F on the north end. You can't put all 5 companys on CR, so I think I company probably pulled back to battle ridge extension and set up to cover the area where the highway and burger joint now stand. C probably setup on I's left flank and L setup on C's left flank. These 3 would have been setup for the purpose of covering E and F's withdrawal. We know Custer delayed at CR for around 10-15 minutes, which was the major mistake, as it allowed the Indians to take the initiative and begins assaults from ford C and ford D crossings. E found itself getting split from F by enemy action up the draw and that forced E to move to the east toward deep ravine. F company had to retire toward LSH. All the while this is going on, L pulled back south along the route they had come from, followed by C only a few minutes behind. L hit resistance at calhoun hill and setup a skirmish. When C arrived, it found L's right flank open so they moved to FFR to cover L, believing I, F, and E would be close behind. However, E and F were fully engaged, and I had moved, under heavy fire, most likely, to the east side of battle ridge and were enroute to calhoun hill when they got hit from hostiles on the east side, hostiles that had overrun E company's position, and probably moved through the gap, and by hostiles coming from the calhoun hill area after finishing off C and L. The reason I think it happened this way is because in order to hold cemetery ridge, you also have to hold battle ridge extension. You can't hold one without holding the other. This requires putting the 5 companies somewhat far apart, but within fire support range. The withdrawal, as outlined, could have worked if it had been initiated immediately, however the delay at CR was their undoing. Too many Indians and not enough troops to fully cover the terrain that needed to be covered. The distance also prohibited effective command and control of all 5 companys, so as things began unraveling, it became each company for itself. You mentioned Custer could form a defensive position or bail out. He should have bailed out immediately in order to have a chance at a standard practice covered withdrawal. So, I agree with you that he formed a defensive position on terrain not really suited for defense, and began a withdrawal. But due to delay, the withdrawal failed and led to 5 isolated companies fighting, with the possibility that some of the men tried to breakout. Colt 45, Sir,your post deserves more than a quick read. I am going to find one of my maps to more properly follow the movements which you have described. I know they will be tactically correct Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and a happy, safe and healthy New Year to all Be Well Dan
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Post by brenda56 on Jan 7, 2017 5:22:57 GMT -6
I'm still bothered about the south to north onward movement, not specifically the intent to move north but why it became such a disjointed affair. On the balance of views expressed it seems unlikely that Custer chose a mass attack at ford B. To me that makes sense. However by the time of reunification Calhoun area, or maybe just before in the case of Custer, there was at least confirmation this was a big settlement. Not only that but the beginning or actual dispersion of inhabitants to the north was observed or assessed as likely or maybe even encouraged. So the villagers heading north were the objective and the terrain for that point of contact seemed ideal. A big village meant a high number heading north. A high number made up of potentially a cross section of the population. A cross section of various ages from warrior to elderly. In other words a footprint growing in size as it left the village. We now have an objective that moves and grows with the passing of time.
It's a bit like the Reno/Benteen intersection but this was different. The former was unseen and in a way slightly reactive however the village inhabitant movement north and the "vectoring" required was visible and required a proactive mindset.
From Calhoun onward there may have been a sense of victory or at least that expectation. However this was not about the continuation of suspect actions but about targeting a moving yet expanding target. The game had changed. It was about looking forward and not backwards. Custer's actions were being driven by that which was visibly developing in the valley below, very different from the catchup mindset from before. Custer's priority was to place himself at a location at a given point in time with the necessary level of force that resulted in a successful assault on the fleeing inhabitants. All about timing, all about control. Attack too early and he may as well have attacked the village at ford b, too late and a bit like herding cats. This is no longer about waiting for Benteen or sparing a thought for Reno. This was about making decisions based on positives and very little else. The key positive was there were five companies, not two or eight. So as he headed north to ford d Keogh covered the rear from the known/suspected village threat. A bit of that was about Benteen but at the very most a traffic signal instead of a traffic light. Yo could even argue that prior to the assault on the villagers the clarity of that assault was only slightly contaminated by Custer's awareness of a possible "push in the rear". In other words his timing of the attack was critical as the window was diminishing. That diminishing period controlled by the moving village footprint on one side and on the other pissed off warriors. The key was getting Keogh off of Calhoun. And Keogh had that time in order to join Custer in a timely and seamless fashion so as not to compromise a time constrained forward unit momentum.The gap became an obstacle when he became engaged but Keogh had time to get off Calhoun before that.
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 7, 2017 18:35:54 GMT -6
Brenda, That is an interesting theory, and it fits with the idea that Custer was in attack mode and Ford D was where he felt he could get north of the village. You are correct that ford B was not where he intended to cross. From the LNC ridges he could have seen that the village was on the other bank and extended further north, hence get to ford D.
However I don't think he left anyone behind in the Calhoun Hill area. He needed all 5 companies in order to have a viable attack force. C, I, and L wound up where they did in the subsequent withdrawal from the ford D area. You noted the time factor and closing window of opportunity. He lost the time race and was repulsed at ford D. Once that happened, his only option was to go back south. The delay on Cemetery ridge was his undoing, as it gave the Indians time to get onto his front (river side), right flank (north side near where the tourist shop is) and left flank ( south side via Deep Ravine). By the time the first units got partway back to where they came from, the back door was closed, and L had to stop and Calhoun hill and deploy into skirmish. C's arrival to the area made them go to FFR to shore up the right flank of L company. I company got caught enroute, and E and F died more or less in place.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 3, 2017 18:48:36 GMT -6
C45,
I don't buy that Keogh (CIL) ever went on the northern Ford D recce.
(1) Benteen is summoned, with packs, and redirected away from the Reno valley fight. (2) Ford B is an obvious infiltration danger to Benteen. (3) Keogh remains at Battle Ridge, to effect the link-up. (4) GAC goes to Ford D, and returns to below LSH. (5) Events overtake GAC. Benteen has been diverted by Reno's defeat into his path, and Keogh starts to collapse (bungled Harrington charge?). (6) The company dominoes collapse. (7) GAC ends up fixed on LSH with RHQ/F.
WO
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Post by fred on Feb 4, 2017 8:20:17 GMT -6
I don't buy that Keogh (CIL) ever went on the northern Ford D recce. Nice to see you back here. And I agree with the above. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2017 9:46:41 GMT -6
WO
Last year Donahue took us on field trip out BRE (battle ridge extension) and to a location where a casing matched firearm tool marked casing in the Calhoun area. I get there is many ways for that to occur but at least one is option is that troopers were their and moved back to the Calhoun area. Also it was pointed out that picture taken of kneeling soldiers was positioned on CR by an Indian battle participant firing toward BRE. There is a number of Indian artifacts in this location which included the case matching tool marks for a firearm at Calhoun. So is it possible that the Indians moved to a location on BRE occupied by soldiers with Keogh and Calhoun. One thing I intend to find out is the location on Calhoun where the matching case was found.
We could also see down the drainage where the new entrance road is located and the old road where Donahue had a picture taken from the new road and toward the old road. The Kellogg markers is seen in that picture. It is along the BRE side of the drainage. The Benteen map shows a trail across the CR location. Also labeled M if I recall correctly is a line of triangles indicating dead.
I don't think that ford B was that important to preventing Indians crossing anywhere. The final location of Calhoun could not support Benteen and especially the pack train in any manner from attack before entering MTC. One of the rides we took was with the Real Birds and after crossing near ford B we rode up along the bluffs to Weir. There is nothing soldiers on Calhoun could do to slow such a movement. There is also Thompsons ford which is not even visible from the Calhoun area.
The Indians could attack the pack train long before it reached MTC.
Terry who went on our first Benteen Scout ride was a Keogh fan and always thought that Keogh was stopped moving from N to S. I wasn't as convinced but I could not exclude it.
Myself I believe recon time for two small companies was over when Custer opened the battle by sending Reno.
Thanks for your service
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2017 9:54:47 GMT -6
Fred How much wiggle room is there for Custer to move north and than return south? If CIL move only as far as BRE and then reverse would it fit? He is Donahue's map. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2017 9:55:47 GMT -6
Here is Benteen's battlefield map
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2017 9:58:36 GMT -6
The map has a "M" located north of LSH and a M in the key.
It's not the 28 bodies since they are on the map also at "H".
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