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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 9, 2019 8:59:39 GMT -6
Richard
Custer tells Reno that he would be supported by the whole outfit. Benteen is a part of the outfit and Reno is second in command. Custer had not fired a shot when Martin was sent. What was the desperation? Reno is in the valley where the situation can be described by the odds against him as desperate.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Aug 9, 2019 11:44:26 GMT -6
Hi AZ The desperation was in seeing the size of the village. Time was now of the essance . The manner in which the note is constructed indicates a rapidly developing situation. Reno was informed of the support Benteen was not. And if you use that arguement would not support mean support for Reno's attack not his defeat?
Best Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 10, 2019 9:22:23 GMT -6
Hi AZ The desperation was in seeing the size of the village. Time was now of the essance . The manner in which the note is constructed indicates a rapidly developing situation. Reno was informed of the support Benteen was not. And if you use that arguement would not support mean support for Reno's attack not his defeat? Best Richard Richard I think Custer was overjoyed and we know the troopers were since they cheered when the saw the Big Village. Custer continued north faster than Benteen could catch up if were to follow Custer's route. I think Custer wanted Benteen to engage but where he was to go was for him to determine. He was obligated to see the pack train was secure. We Custer did not see is that it was Bigger than a Big Village and composed Sioux and Cheyenne. He could not see the camps of Cheyennes by warrior society and could not see the camp of warriors only on the north end. Gordon Harper had talked and wrote about it. We saw a buffalo hide on display at the Brinton Museum in Big Horn, Wyoming. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Aug 13, 2019 8:34:17 GMT -6
Hi AZ It's not unknown for men to cheer when scared ,helps the nerves. And it's always good to see the officers in good heart and overjoyed. So we know Custer knows that Reno at best has stalled and is dealing with a counter attack. He knows the Indians are not running. He knows it is a big village but he may not know the extent of it. He knows that to attack he must cross a river. He knows that surprise is gone.
I think that the note was a smigin more anxious than overjoyed. Whatcha tink? Best Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 13, 2019 8:59:24 GMT -6
Hi Richard
I think that Custer was letting Benteen know he found what they were looking for and he wanted Benteen to support the effort against the Big Village. I believe he was concerned about the pack train so he wanted it forward. Whether they were to go to Reno in valley as Custer had told Reno or if they were to take a more strenuous route with pack animal already worn out doesn't matter much to me. What I do know is that after riding down into MTC and through Luce, Nye-Cartwright, Henryville, and ending at the Calhoun area would not be a likely route to take. Whatever caused Custer to go north of MTC was not included in the note Martin was carrying.
My best guess is that Custer meant what he told Reno. He anticipated fighting the same Indians that Reno was fighting and the quickest route for Benteen and the pack train would be to cross at Ford A. I think the Cheyennes entering the fight changed Custer's plans and he moved north most likely to get north of the village and attempt to find an unopposed wide crossing place.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Aug 13, 2019 10:14:40 GMT -6
Hi AZ Well if Benteen did think as you say, he did not attempt such an attack and never said in letters or inteviews that his orders were to attack. Cheers Richard
PS On a lighter note what are your thoughts on the recent mass shootings?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 13, 2019 16:12:34 GMT -6
Hi AZ Well if Benteen did think as you say, he did not attempt such an attack and never said in letters or inteviews that his orders were to attack. Cheers Richard PS On a lighter note what are your thoughts on the recent mass shootings? Richard Timeliness of and distance from when a order is given must always be taken into account. Reno was leaving the valley and Custer never made it there. As far as the mass shootings. They are sad events but in the whole scope of murders and assaults they are a small percentage. I think the quickest answer is what the off duty fireman did at the Walmart. He pulled his gun and prevented the subject from doing something wrong. Its seems to me that the majority of these mass shootings end when good guys with guns show up. I think it is wrong to ignore Chicago for whatever reason. Why do you think Chicago's murders are ignored? Regards Steve
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Post by montrose on Aug 15, 2019 21:26:26 GMT -6
Situation: LTC Custer at 3411 saw that Reno's attack was stalled, and that Indians had swept past his open flank and were between him and Ford A. Benteen and the trains would naturally follow the trail across Ford A and after Reno.
The order for Benteen and the trains to follow Custer, vice Reno was intended to keep them from running into the Indians between Ford A and Reno. It makes sense. They would have been slaughtered piecemeal.
Custer had decided not to support his advance guard, he wanted regiment to mass east of the river and north of 3411. He intended some type of attack, but had not conducted recce yet to know assembly area and attack positions. He was winging it.
Indian combat power was moving in massive strength towards Reno and away from village. GAC saw an opportunity, and regarded Indian combat power as nil. In his eyes, 1000 plus Indians on Reno was not a threat to Reno. He decided not to go where the enemy was, but where they were not. Just remember, the bigget challenge US faced in this era was getting Indians to fight. They generally avoided US strength, only fought when they had an advantage. Beecher's island and other fights had taught the Indians the follow of straight up fights. So if they do stand, go all in and kill the buggers is the best thing to do. (Vastly amused is this is what works in Afghanistan, today).
The results of GAC's orders was no support for Reno in the valley, But because GAC kept moving north the Benteen and train detachments were, by order, never in a position to support Reno or Custer. The regiment became scattered in small groups out of supporting distance of one another. AT some point LTC Custer must have intended to consolidate his element with Benteen and McDougall, based on march rates after 1800 hours. But before then the regiment was scattered into 8 parts: 5 single companies and the Benteen, McDougall and Reno detachments.
The problem is any competent officer at 3411 would see the need to consolidate, not scatter. The decision to consolidate was made by Benteen and Reno on their own.
I understand GAC's decision making process. I do not justify it. He was an incompetent officer, unfit for a commission at any rank.
This fight should have been an easy win for US forces. That is why it stands out as an anomaly. This battle would have had a better outcome if any LTC or COL in the 1876 army had been in command, except LTC Custer. Old Barnum would have a better performance.
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Post by wild on Aug 15, 2019 23:55:43 GMT -6
Hi AZ I agree there was a time lapse in Custer'S order but it is allowed for in the rather amateurish "be quick". The order placed Benteen in control of nearly as many troops as Custer had himself.This is significant as the situation with Reno although a monumental cock up was not so disasterous as to prevent Benteen advancing or at the very least informing himself of the situation beyond Weir point. Benteen had 3 companies plus a reinforced company. He was still a player . He failed to use this force in a mission positive manner.
On the side issue of mass killings . There is no such thing as good people and bad people , there are only people and any one of them is capable of anything . A society which thinks that arming its citizens to police the same armed citizens is f~~~~~G crazy.
Best Richard
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Post by wild on Aug 16, 2019 0:19:38 GMT -6
Colonel nice to see you alive and hopefully well. Nice post. 2 points arising there of. It is a really good sand table view of the critical phase of the battle. But for the purpose of framing Benteen we need to provide our portagonists with the element of mutual ignorance. I have a problem with the term consolidate. Mcdougal described the scene on Reno hill as a picnic. Best Regards Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 16, 2019 7:55:12 GMT -6
Hi AZ I agree there was a time lapse in Custer'S order but it is allowed for in the rather amateurish "be quick". The order placed Benteen in control of nearly as many troops as Custer had himself.This is significant as the situation with Reno although a monumental cock up was not so disasterous as to prevent Benteen advancing or at the very least informing himself of the situation beyond Weir point. Benteen had 3 companies plus a reinforced company. He was still a player . He failed to use this force in a mission positive manner. On the side issue of mass killings . There is no such thing as good people and bad people , there are only people and any one of them is capable of anything . A society which thinks that arming its citizens to police the same armed citizens is f~~~~~G crazy. Best Richard Richard We called it the Declaration of Independence getting away from what we considered a bad persons influence upon us in the form of taxes. We had good guys with guns and the victory led to the Constitution and the Amendments . It gave the backbone to be being a good person with a gun called the 2nd Amendment. The other were and still are bad persons or crimnals, or neutral when it comes to crime prevention. The only fool is one who believes that the police can defend them in their home against someone who has broken into to do whatever they want. Police take reports and if something is still in progress they address that. The Walmart shooter killed persons in less than a minute. It took police less than a minute to get there. Criminals are bad guys. They chose to break laws. Those that protect others are good guys. A simple analogy Wolf -- person who break laws , a bad person Sheep Dog -- person who protects others, a good person Sheep -- person who relies upon others for protect, a dependent person who is at the mercy of the bad person unless a Sheep Dog protects them The vast majority of people are sheep. Two Walmarts had good guys with guns that stopped bad guys with guns before they could shoot anyone. They weren't police just good guys with guns. Regards Steve
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Post by Colt45 on Aug 16, 2019 14:36:36 GMT -6
I absolutely could not agree more with you, Steve. Well said.
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Post by wild on Aug 16, 2019 21:27:16 GMT -6
Hi AZ Policing is a function of the State. If the State must rely on armed ad hoc ,uncontrolled,untrained citizenry to maintain law and order it is disfunctional across a wide range social activities. The success of this method [ armed citizens}can be gauged from the casualties ......more casualties in the last 50 years than all the wars in which the US was engaged. Approx 10000 children injured and killed by guns every year.
There are other factors which influence the situation such as the arms industry...largest in the world and the powerful Rifle Assoc but I believe that you guys just like your guns and place a higher value on them than on the lives of your children .
Best Richard
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Post by wild on Aug 19, 2019 10:56:52 GMT -6
Further The second amendment gives everyone the option of settling an issue by extreme means. It allows the citizenry to be judge jury and executioner. All encounters with the police proceed under defcon rules. All encounters with strangers are fraught with uncertainty. A stranger knocks on your back door ...you are within your rights to shoot him dead. The military have stricter rules governing the "bearing of arms" than the citizenry.
There was a time in the US when the constitution allowed for slavery. There was a time when a man did not have the right to drink alcohol. So what's in the constitution is not sacrosanct. When the second amendment became law it was ok to burn Witches. The red coats have long gone .
However it might seem that the geeney [?] is out of the bottle and cannot be put back. Is there a solution? Stop making ammo available to gun owners except where he/she is a club member, has been cleared by the police , with guns stored in a secure location and used only in a secure environment. Of course one must recognise that arms are part and parcil of rural life in the States, that is something different to machinesguns in urban areas.
Best Richard
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Post by Colt45 on Aug 19, 2019 15:29:27 GMT -6
Wow, Where to begin with that complete mess you posted, Wild.
First off, the 2nd amendment does not give everyone the right to use guns to settle an argument. It only allows the citizenry to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self defense, and so citizens can resist a government that becomes tyrannical, which is what the founders feared and why they put the 2nd amendment into the constitution. Citizens are not the judge, jury, and executioner. Our laws handle that for us. And no one has the right to shoot someone who knocks at your door. Come on man, you know better than all that.
The constitution is what protects us all from an overbearing government. If you have read it, you know it sets limits on government, not people. It specifically enumerates what the federal government can do, and the 10th amendment leaves all other rights to the states and/or the people.
It's because of the constitution (all amendments) that you can post your opinion, right or wrong, on anything, and I can respond and agree or disagree.
In today's world, where human life seems to no longer have any value, the 2nd amendment has even more relevance to people like me, who know that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. I am a sheepdog, hence I would engage someone attempting to harm you even though you hate the thought that I might be in possession of a gun. But I would wager if you were being threatened with death or serious bodily injury and I happened along and intervened on your behalf, with my bad old gun, you would be very glad I did.
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