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Post by magpie on Nov 4, 2015 19:46:28 GMT -6
In recent discussions with the ASSoc. Tribe across the great divide it has come to my attention their leader believes Reno's glade was in a rear position owing naturally to their perspective. Every drawing I've seen places the glade or at least forward most part of it forward of the Skirmish line. If one goes to the RCOI Maguire map 5 people participants made their mark and all five have the glade in advance of the skirmish line. This is of critical importance as the bodies of Dorman and Renolds are given in relationship to the glade. Just wondering what impression do the people on our side of the divide have about where?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 5, 2015 5:56:35 GMT -6
Fred selects the Pitsch site. Bill doesn't like Jason Pitsch who claims to have found hundreds period correct cases in the timber. Here is a link to the discussion on the other board. thelbha.proboards.com/thread/2441/renos-timber-location-pitsch-vaughnsMyself I don't think Vaughn discovered enough artifacts to determine anything. He never found any evidence to verify the location of the first skirmish line where the majority of the firing would have occurred. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 5, 2015 6:04:57 GMT -6
In recent discussions with the ASSoc. Tribe across the great divide it has come to my attention their leader believes Reno's glade was in a rear position owing naturally to their perspective. Every drawing I've seen places the glade or at least forward most part of it forward of the Skirmish line. If one goes to the RCOI Maguire map 5 people participants made their mark and all five have the glade in advance of the skirmish line. This is of critical importance as the bodies of Dorman and Renolds are given in relationship to the glade. Just wondering what impression do the people on our side of the divide have about where? Was the line they were indicating on a map where they dismounted and got on line or the where they advanced to an fired from? I think the forward advance is what Vaughn and most call the first skirmish line. The second being the reaction to the flanking Indians. I would think that the horses would be taken to a safe place. I don't think you would take them so they were ahead of a skirmish line and closer to the Indians with an Indian approach to them through the timber. Could they be ahead of where they dismounted? I don't have a problem with that since they could be moving them as the skirmish line advanced. I could be wrong since a lot of things they did that doesn't make sense to me. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 6:48:57 GMT -6
Reno's timber is at the Pitsch site, no questions about it: maps, be damned.
Let's get real here. Pitsch found several hundred period, non-head-stamped, spent cartridge cases there, and the shape and formation of the dry channel fits descriptions perfectly. In addition, its location ties in precisely with LT Maguire's distance estimate of the skirmish line, and additional government artifacts found by Pitsch, Doug Scott, and Glen Swanson at the western side of the valley. So unless you believe Pitsch salted all these cartridge cases, etc., in some nefarious conspiracy plot to enhance the "value" of all this property-- only some of which he owned-- Reno's timber is precisely where 99% of people believe it is.
In addition to all that, please read the testimonies of Giovanni Martini and LT DeRudio at the RCOI. If you read those carefully, then take the time to do the measurements-- something my friend, Bill Rini, has not done-- you will see that is the only location where the timber could have been. You also need to add in the accounts of Reno's riders and what they had to say about the configuration of the various terrain features and distances, something no one seems to want to take the time and effort to do. This other business about it being in the "Garryowen Loop" because Jesse Vaughn found a handful of cartridge cases there, is sheer and utter nonsense. The presence of those cases is easily explained if one bothers to read Black Elk Speaks and The Sixth Grandfather. And please, do not get embroiled in the distortion of Doug Scott's comments regarding Vaughn and his finds. Again, I have read posts claiming Scott agreed with Vaughn... yet those posts only pick out the part where it seems Scott agreed, to the elimination of the rest of what Scott wrote. That is no different than the abbreviated claim Benteen found the timber fully defensible. Read on, read on!
Regardless of what one may think of the incarcerated Jason Pitsch, he did some valuable metal-detecting work all over that valley. Even the locals speak highly of his finds, so unless you want to discount all the artifactual and anecdotal evidence for some cockamamie nonsense theory or possible "what-ifs," the mystery of the whereabouts of Reno's timber is hardly with your time and effort.
It appears to me, the Strategy book really does need to be read several times.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Nov 5, 2015 7:57:45 GMT -6
I don't know but were the horses taken into the timber ? The drill as for skirmish lines must have been dismount with the no4s taking the mounts to the rear and the dismounted line moving forward. Just think of trying to locate your company mounts in the timber and forming up .What a disorganised panic there would be.
Just in passing That is no different than the abbreviated claim Benteen found the timber fully defensible. Read on, read on! The Maginot line was also fully defensible . Unless Reno could anchor his flanks he faced the same outflanking issue as did his skermish line in the open
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 5, 2015 9:57:17 GMT -6
Reno's timber is at the Pitsch site, no questions about it: maps, be damned. Let's get real here. Pitsch found several hundred period, non-head-stamped, spent cartridge cases there, and the shape and formation of the dry channel fits descriptions perfectly. In addition, its location ties in precisely with LT Maguire's distance estimate of the skirmish line, and additional government artifacts found by Pitsch, Doug Scott, and Glen Swanson at the western side of the valley. So unless you believe Pitsch salted all these cartridge cases, etc., in some nefarious conspiracy plot to enhance the "value" of all this property-- only some of which he owned-- Reno's timber is precisely where 99% of people believe it is. In addition to all that, please read the testimonies of Giovanni Martini and LT DeRudio at the RCOI. If you read those carefully, then take the time to do the measurements-- something my friend, Bill Rini, has not done-- you will see that is the only location where the timber could have been. You also need to add in the accounts of Reno's riders and what they had to say about the configuration of the various terrain features and distances, something no one seems to want to take the time and effort to do. This other business about it being in the "Garryowen Loop" because Jesse Vaughn found a handful of cartridge cases there, is sheer and utter nonsense. The presence of those cases is easily explained if one bothers to read Black Elk Speaks and The Sixth Grandfather. And please, do not get embroiled in the distortion of Doug Scott's comments regarding Vaughn and his finds. Again, I have read posts claiming Scott agreed with Vaughn... yet those posts only pick out the part where it seems Scott agreed, to the elimination of the rest of what Scott wrote. That is no different than the abbreviated claim Benteen found the timber fully defensible. Read on, read on! Regardless of what one may think of the incarcerated Jason Pitsch, he did some valuable metal-detecting work all over that valley. Even the locals speak highly of his finds, so unless you want to discount all the artifactual and anecdotal evidence for some cockamamie nonsense theory or possible "what-ifs," the mystery of the whereabouts of Reno's timber is hardly with your time and effort. It appears to me, the Strategy book really does need to be read several times. Best wishes, Fred. Yes being arrested can happen to anyone Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 5, 2015 10:05:44 GMT -6
I think it is important to note that Vaughn has new facts on seven encounters. I won't hold it against him that he is an attorney.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 5, 2015 10:33:20 GMT -6
Reno's timber is at the Pitsch site, no questions about it: maps, be damned. Let's get real here. Pitsch found several hundred period, non-head-stamped, spent cartridge cases there, and the shape and formation of the dry channel fits descriptions perfectly. In addition, its location ties in precisely with LT Maguire's distance estimate of the skirmish line, and additional government artifacts found by Pitsch, Doug Scott, and Glen Swanson at the western side of the valley. So unless you believe Pitsch salted all these cartridge cases, etc., in some nefarious conspiracy plot to enhance the "value" of all this property-- only some of which he owned-- Reno's timber is precisely where 99% of people believe it is. In addition to all that, please read the testimonies of Giovanni Martini and LT DeRudio at the RCOI. If you read those carefully, then take the time to do the measurements-- something my friend, Bill Rini, has not done-- you will see that is the only location where the timber could have been. You also need to add in the accounts of Reno's riders and what they had to say about the configuration of the various terrain features and distances, something no one seems to want to take the time and effort to do. This other business about it being in the "Garryowen Loop" because Jesse Vaughn found a handful of cartridge cases there, is sheer and utter nonsense. The presence of those cases is easily explained if one bothers to read Black Elk Speaks and The Sixth Grandfather. And please, do not get embroiled in the distortion of Doug Scott's comments regarding Vaughn and his finds. Again, I have read posts claiming Scott agreed with Vaughn... yet those posts only pick out the part where it seems Scott agreed, to the elimination of the rest of what Scott wrote. That is no different than the abbreviated claim Benteen found the timber fully defensible. Read on, read on! Regardless of what one may think of the incarcerated Jason Pitsch, he did some valuable metal-detecting work all over that valley. Even the locals speak highly of his finds, so unless you want to discount all the artifactual and anecdotal evidence for some cockamamie nonsense theory or possible "what-ifs," the mystery of the whereabouts of Reno's timber is hardly with your time and effort. It appears to me, the Strategy book really does need to be read several times. Best wishes, Fred. Yes being arrested can happen to anyone Regards Steve So does that mean that Rini and Pitsch have 2 things in common? Is it contagious to Custer Geeks?
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 10:59:39 GMT -6
I think it is important to note that Vaughn has new facts on seven encounters. Such as...? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 5, 2015 11:03:28 GMT -6
I don't know but were the horses taken into the timber ? C'mon, Richard; you read the book. And in M Company's case that is precisely what happened. I would tend to agree, especially considering the circumstances. Exactly!Exactly!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 5, 2015 12:56:54 GMT -6
I think it is important to note that Vaughn has new facts on seven encounters. Such as...? Best wishes, Fred. Fred That is within the title of his book. So did he set out to write about 7 encounters or did find new facts that he felt should be published. The length of time spent in Reno fight valley area and the few artifacts found makes me suspect. I still can't get past his statement that finding nothing confirms a site location. Regards Steve
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Post by magpie on Nov 5, 2015 14:33:04 GMT -6
In recent discussions with the ASSoc. Tribe across the great divide it has come to my attention their leader believes Reno's glade was in a rear position owing naturally to their perspective. Every drawing I've seen places the glade or at least forward most part of it forward of the Skirmish line. If one goes to the RCOI Maguire map 5 people participants made their mark and all five have the glade in advance of the skirmish line. This is of critical importance as the bodies of Dorman and Renolds are given in relationship to the glade. Just wondering what impression do the people on our side of the divide have about where? Was the line they were indicating on a map where they dismounted and got on line or the where they advanced to an fired from? I think the forward advance is what Vaughn and most call the first skirmish line. The second being the reaction to the flanking Indians. I would think that the horses would be taken to a safe place. I don't think you would take them so they were ahead of a skirmish line and closer to the Indians with an Indian approach to them through the timber. Could they be ahead of where they dismounted? I don't have a problem with that since they could be moving them as the skirmish line advanced. I could be wrong since a lot of things they did that doesn't make sense to me. Regards AZ Ranger To answer is a fair amount of work. I would have to go back to the RCOI and read about each man's statement about his skirmish line mark he made on Maguires map but frankly they are all within a couple hundred yards of each other and the length varies more than the placement. The skirmish line also advanced 100-200 yards. Reno was pretty enamoured with the 5 yard spacing so at most you'd have 75 men at 5 yards apart or 375 yards but some witnesses saying 100-200 yards. Fred wants to add depth and is tactically correct in a modern sense but most of those manuals look pretty linear but with a reserve at your flank which will shorten your line as well as Reno pulling a squad to recon the glade ( another reason I believe it was in the advance). Now as to Pitsch all I have are the yellow dots of Pitsch that Scott put on Figure 26 of his NPS publication free on line. Scott say's all of Pitch is lost to history because his artifacts were sold to privateers. So I am unsure of where Fred has the glade. Herosrest found a photo marked up by W O Taylor in the Denver library owned by Chris Kortlander and it shows Otter Creek or Reno's ditch forming an apex with the river and Taylor saying the glade ( or rather were the horses were initially held) is at the apex. On all Maguire maps show the Southerly border of the glade is South of the skirmish line. Fred might throw us map so we can see if I am apples and apples or oranges. I think he's jumping to conclusions there. I am also open minded about Taylors photo and aware that no one was happy with Maguire yet it's the only point of reference we have except casings.
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Post by magpie on Nov 5, 2015 14:45:09 GMT -6
I don't know but were the horses taken into the timber ? The drill as for skirmish lines must have been dismount with the no4s taking the mounts to the rear and the dismounted line moving forward. Just think of trying to locate your company mounts in the timber and forming up .What a disorganised panic there would be. Just in passing That is no different than the abbreviated claim Benteen found the timber fully defensible. Read on, read on!The Maginot line was also fully defensible . Unless Reno could anchor his flanks he faced the same outflanking issue as did his skermish line in the open That is what happened Wild so I think you are on to something. I think the glade was a pleasant trap it was open but you were down in a bowl the annoying sounds of battle probably quieted and you felt protected and walked further in. Benteen is a devil and a devil's advocate all in one so it's hard to figure his words. Class A Defensive site but I only expect you'll survive 4 hours? The on Maginot fort required 100,000 casualties to take it from the French it was the flank bypass not the line that spelled doom.
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Post by magpie on Nov 5, 2015 14:48:46 GMT -6
I was focusing on the glade and not Timber as the whole river is lined with "Timber". It's as usefull as saying to the river.
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Post by wild on Nov 5, 2015 15:05:09 GMT -6
Just in passing The idea of having ammo in the saddle bags is a joke.
I think we make too much of skirmish lines .They were no more than a light covering screen with the horses close by for a speedy advance or retreat. Durnfords covering action at the Isandalwana is a prime example of how to fight light mounted carbines. The dismounted skirmish line was never designed as a heavy duty engaqement system .
And regards to you Fred .Be of good cheer Strategy is so good that my son will not return it to me.
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