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Post by herosrest on Aug 4, 2019 3:18:01 GMT -6
More in line with topic and Reno's Glade. I have been beavering away with terrain related data and particularly river loops as they were in 1876. The terrain of the Pitsch farm where significant battle attributed finds were made, was east of the river in 1876 as it was 1n 1886 and around 1900 also, which is shown in photographs of the river. These relics, assuming they were from the fighting of 25th June 1876; indicate where the Crow and Ree scouts including White Swan, Young Hawk and Paints Half his Face Yellow, made their stand under cover after crossing the river behind Reno.
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Post by shan on Aug 4, 2019 3:53:14 GMT -6
Herosrest,
We all become trapped by what we have read to some extent, which why I suppose, I've been visiting these boards for nearly 20 years now, more often than not hanging around in the background reading a lot of stuff that actually doesn't interest me all that much: like the current spate over on the other board about who is making the best use of the latest digital technology, but it's worse than that, for I keep spending money that I haven't got buying the next book that comes out in the hope that I will read something that will help me change my mind.
So my point is this, I'm open to new theories, and live in the hope that someone will change my mind, so why am I so suspicious regarding the fact that the Crow scouts may have accompanied Custer's command as far as greasy Grass? Over the years I've read their accounts so many times I don't know whether I'm coming or going, but on balance, I don't think they really claimed any such thing. Not that it matters that much, which is of course, part of the trap that keeps us all here, for even if it could be proved, it makes little difference to the final result.
Having said that, I'm grateful to people like you getting your hands dirty amongst reams of old maps and newspaper accounts that I don't have to read, and whilst I'll never be able to visit the Pitsch Farm, and stand there on the ground, and try and visualize those Indian scouts fighting for their lives -- one of the most vivid and visceral accounts we have, I can now think of it in a different way.
Shan
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Post by wild on Aug 5, 2019 12:38:45 GMT -6
The "come on order" is exactly that "come on" it is not a "go to order". The orders given to Benteen earlier for his scout are "go to orders".
"Big village" is not a destination but intell as to possible opposition.
The pack train is Custer's reserve; to be deployed as he see fit not as Benteen see fit.
Military protocol obliges the recipient of an order to report back to the issuer of said order.
A great disservice was done to all by the military by not holding an enquiry into the debacle. debacle
Best Regards Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 6, 2019 9:43:54 GMT -6
Hi Wild
Exactly where do you think Benteen was to go to at the time Custer sent Martin?
Regards
AZ
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Post by noggy on Aug 6, 2019 9:49:00 GMT -6
Hi Wild Exactly where do you think Benteen was to go to at the time Custer sent Martin? Regards AZ Good point. At the very least, he was to leave Reno unsupported just like GAC himself had done earlier. Poor McIlhargy (can`t spell it) and Mitchell who got the one way ticket. All the best, Noggy
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Post by wild on Aug 6, 2019 11:31:56 GMT -6
Hello AZ Trust you are doing well.
Ah the echo of battles past.... Wish I could freshen up my view on this issue but alas....
Benteen has to report to Custer in person or at least by dispatch.
Now you must answer these questions... did Reno's position require all of Benteen'S Battalion plus a reinforced 4th company to stabalize a lost cause? Did Reno's position require the permanent halt of Benteen command? Should Custer have been advised that his reserves were halted and would not reach him.
Is it possible that the tactical position of Custer's units [battle ridge} was taken with a view to linking up with Benteen?
Is Dan and Fred still alive?
Best Richard
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Post by wild on Aug 6, 2019 11:35:19 GMT -6
Hello Noggy You dont reinforce a lost cause.
Best Richard
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Post by noggy on Aug 6, 2019 12:57:31 GMT -6
Hello Noggy You dont reinforce a lost cause. Best Richard Hello Wild By that reasoning, would not soldiers at war just leave their wounded behind in most pressing circumstances? GAC put Reno in this position by not following up on his own promise about support. I have a hard time believing Benteen had any really good way of even finding GAC. Maybe the two messengers Reno sent but never got a response from GAC about should have been sent back the same way they came, or the two GAC sent to Benteen/the packs rather than to the "lost cause" could have been sent back? Maybe. Maybe not. Having a weaker unit setting of into the unknown with a roughed up unit left to itself looking for the strongest unit is however something I think we rarely see in military history. All the best, Noggy
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Post by wild on Aug 6, 2019 13:19:44 GMT -6
Hi Noggy A wounded man was left to the tender mercy of the Indians in the retreat from Weir Point.
You can't run a battle if your officers' reaction to your orders are dependent on how they feel about how you treat other units. You can't just say well f**k this for a game of cowboys and Indians and sit down and sulk. Cheers Richard
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Post by noggy on Aug 6, 2019 13:48:03 GMT -6
You can't run a battle if your officers' reaction to your orders are dependent on how they feel about how you treat other units. You can't just say well f**k this for a game of cowboys and Indians and sit down and sulk. Cheers Richard Hi Neither can you run a battle when you give your officer leading a sizable chunk of your troops instructions / promises and then leave him to his fate, while you wait for a second battalion to find your larger unit which you have lead off to God knows where without nobody knowing about your plans Yes, under a hasty retreat things happen but Reno`s Battalion was not that. I too agree it could/should be debated if all of Benteen`s companies were needed. But continuing to fragment the Regiment my just as well have led to worse casualties than what was the case. Seeing what happened to the 3 companies GAC failed to follow may have influenced the decision. You and AZ + myself obviously differ a lot when it comes to how doable we feel it was for a effective and fast linkup / communication with GAC. And that`s very interesting. I saw you asked about Fred, btw. Have you seen he`s partaking in the making of a documentary? All the best, Noggy
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Post by wild on Aug 6, 2019 16:09:47 GMT -6
Hi Noggy We are judging the decision making of Benteen at a particular moment in time when he was ,unlike us not in possession of all the facts. You are using hindsight. I no longer have my notes but was it an hour after Benteen meets Reno that he was he able to reach Weir point?
Wounded and defeated troops are not a reason for deviating from orders. Military history is littered with examples of artillery intentionally firing on positions occupied by their own troops and of cavalry charging over their own comrades.
Thanks for the intell on Fred .Glad to hear he is still involved.
Best Richard
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Post by noggy on Aug 7, 2019 7:23:38 GMT -6
Hi Wild
This is hastily put together due to me babysitting a monstrous St. Bernard puppy, so excuse the language and any "this doesn`t make any sense" parts.
No US Officer stole the show that day, but how many good decisions did GAC make after deciding not to do as he promised Reno? Fewer than Benteen. We can talk about shelling positions held by own troops etc, but any commander which through his decision making CREATES such a situation should be in a lot of hot water. That`s what GAC did. What happened to Reno in the Valley wasn`t because of the greatness of the NAs. Just like the rest of the battle, they were allowed to handle a Regiment piece by piece. Rather crazy think that GAC waited for 3-4 companies on the ridge after wasting 3 companies outside the village, which he said he`d support.
How can Benteen «win» in a discussion like this? Only by being perfect, anf that was impossible if we look at all the uncertainties and confusion that day. Much due to GAC imo. What if Benteen, when being sent away from the regiment without any info about GAC`s plans, continued South longer than when he decided to return? What time would he have received the message and reached the bluffs? 30 minutes delay, 40? I`m not sure if Fred`s timeline could give some pointers here. At the time, would he not get the blame if Indians actually managed to flee Southwards? Did he not disobey orders by not bringing packs? He couldn`t «be quick» and bring the packs at the same time. He`d be crucified for leaving wounded men on Reno Hill to their deaths, even though the blame would not be his. Leaving Reno to his faith may look like the right thing to do for some, but Benteen probably was not letting that happen considering Elliott`s fate outside Washita. That was a small force, Custer`s the largest unit in the Regiment. He made decisions, just like breaking of the scout and not taking the packs with him.
We are privileged to play judge and jury on the internet now 140 years after. True hindsight.
Fred`s documentary is here
All the best, Noggy
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 7, 2019 7:32:46 GMT -6
Hello AZ Trust you are doing well. Ah the echo of battles past.... Wish I could freshen up my view on this issue but alas.... Benteen has to report to Custer in person or at least by dispatch. Now you must answer these questions... did Reno's position require all of Benteen'S Battalion plus a reinforced 4th company to stabalize a lost cause? Did Reno's position require the permanent halt of Benteen command? Should Custer have been advised that his reserves were halted and would not reach him. Is it possible that the tactical position of Custer's units [battle ridge} was taken with a view to linking up with Benteen? Is Dan and Fred still alive? Best Richard Hi Richard Good to see you dropping in. Fred and Dan are still alive as far as I know. I talked to Fred recently. Custer told Reno what to expect in support---the whole outfit. Opening a new front with the Cheyennes does not support Reno's contact with the Sioux. Custer didn't do that at the Washita. He had his soldiers all in mutual support against a small portion of the total Indians there. When the showed up he retrograded. Benteen's command did stop permanently without attempting to move forward. Weir moved to a very useful observation post. I think that move was early on and should have been done. Weir himself never went further forward. Edgerly did move forward but the Indian force at the time caused him to move back to where Weir was located. Custer did not cross the river to support Reno against the Sioux for his own reasons. Once he moved north against the Cheyenne he gave up whatever plan he had when he sent Martin. I believe there is no way that the Calhoun Area was to be an area to join up with Benteen. That terrain between MTC and Deep Coulée is full of ambush sites and they were used against the companies passing over Luce and NC earlier. I am sticking with Gordie's north to south flow. It makes sense to me and after all these years that is what is most important to me. I believe that Custer was on offense moving north until the numbers of Indians crossing the river toward him forced him to stop. I believe he was retrograding back toward the regiment when he was fixed and destroyed. E and F were holding the rear with HQ while CIL advanced toward MTC. The best travel corridor was near MTF and outside of the range of most firearms at the river or in the village. I think see was in the lead and near the area they were going to use. That would be the generally the area between the current Butler and Foley markers. It is clear and wide where cavalry tactics and weapon systems would have an advantage. If anyone is interested in June we go into that area between MTC and Deep Coulée and follow the NC artifacts mapped route. You might go that way once but not twice with all the Indians willing to fight. No one would think after being there that Benteen was to take ammunition mules on that route to the Calhoun Area right through Henryville. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Aug 8, 2019 14:50:05 GMT -6
Hi Guys Will return to the points you have made later, very busy at the moment but just to keep the pot on the boil.....
I was thinking about the point of decision for Benteen but then realised that he made no decision from the point he encountered Reno to his return from Weir. What in fact he did was to let things happen. And he was fortunate in the way the cards fell for him . Particularly the demise of Custer. The order carried to him by Martin is a call to action. It is aggressive , it is desperate. His reaction is to join forces with a defeated shell shocked officer. Later Best
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Post by wild on Aug 9, 2019 8:07:24 GMT -6
Further If you take Benteen's actions along his odssey from where he departs the column on his scout via Reno Hill to Weir Point his entire behavior smacks of an enormous sulk. it might be possible to excuse or condone one or two of his lapses but everything he did was negative or at least negligent. Look at this ; he gets advice to keep a body of troopers in advance of his battalion.What is his reaction ? Sure he deploys an advance guard but he himself goes in advance of this unit. He practically shoos away the first messenger that he meets .Asks nothing of him and sends him on his way. Second messenger ordering him to bring the packs. Reaction is to ignore the packs and does not comminicate the changed circumstances to the commander. On encountering Reno he plays the old soldier and is no assistance to Reno or Custer. His own battalion disintigrates for lack of leadership and he acquiesces in a shambolic advance to Weir point. We could give him a fools pardon ,write him off as an indecisive incompetent officer but his performance defending Reno hill belies this image.
Cheers all
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