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Post by wild on Aug 19, 2019 17:26:32 GMT -6
Hi Colt Thanks for that and apologies my literary style is somewhat sloppy. I think you will find that I said option not right. It would have avoided confusion if I had said the 2nd in effect gave rise to the use of firearms in heated situation.[Saturday night special] The keeping of weapons as insurance against a tyranical government is self defeating as it has inflicted a tyranny on the society it is supposed o be protecting. Would you keep an army which inflicted such casualties on society? 10000 children a year. I don't understand the sheepdog analogy. Are you a policeman? The impression I get from youtube is that carrying weapons in public does not go down well with the real police? I have seen a number of incidents of confrontations with police disarming gun owners. Later Cheers
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Post by Colt45 on Aug 19, 2019 20:53:57 GMT -6
I am a former police officer and as such I saw numerous times where if the victim had a weapon, they would have not been victimized. Police arrive at crime scenes after the crime has occurred and they wind up taking a report and trying to follow up later. It doesn't help the victim if the victim has been killed and is of little solace if the victim has been seriously injured.
Gun deaths are far inferior in number to the deaths that occur due to abortion and car accidents. Are you willing to ban abortions and automobiles? Both kill far more people every year than all gun-related deaths. There is no tyranny being inflicted on society by the presence of guns in the hands of the citizens. When the citizenry has no means of resisting a government that becomes overbearing, then tyranny and despotism results. This is the lesson of history.
In Texas where I live, to legally carry a weapon, a person applying for a carry license must pass a thorough background check, that is conducted both by the State and the Feds, then complete a training course on the penal code as it relates to the use of force and deadly force, then pass a proficiency test with a weapon. Most licensees carry concealed, which reduces the apprehension of those who don't like seeing guns in any form.
As to police not liking people carrying guns in public, I have not met any officer that hates the license to carry law here in Texas. In fact, the state police appreciate citizens that have been thoroughly vetted possessing a weapon on their person. They know when they are out on a lonely road a great distance from their nearest backup unit and they encounter a bad guy, that if a LTC (license to carry) person comes along, that person will most likely come to the officer's aid if needed. LTC people are the sheepdogs I referred to in the last post.
I have had citizens come to my assistance more than once and I can tell you it is greatly appreciated, especially when the backup officer is still enroute to my location and I need a backup.
You are free to dislike guns and the folks that use and/or carry them, and if the 2nd amendment causes you heartburn, then lobby Congress to pass an amendment that removes the 2nd amendment. Other than that process, there is no legitimate way to disarm American citizens. In every country where the populace has been disarmed, tyranny has followed. As I said earlier, that is the lesson of history.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 20, 2019 8:38:43 GMT -6
Re: "It only allows the citizenry to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self defense . . ."
That is false:
The 2nd Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed . . ."
In the Columbia vs. Hiller Case which protected the rights of individuals to own guns without being part of a militia what is often left out by gun-rights activists is this important part: "the right to bear arms is not unlimited and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated." Justice Scalia (the darling of the right) believed that also)
So, yes, we have the right to own guns but it is not "unlimited and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated.
Sounds to me the government has the right to limit guns such as ARs & other kinds of weapons and types of ammunition.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 21, 2019 8:44:47 GMT -6
Hi AZ Policing is a function of the State. If the State must rely on armed ad hoc ,uncontrolled,untrained citizenry to maintain law and order it is disfunctional across a wide range social activities. The success of this method [ armed citizens}can be gauged from the casualties ......more casualties in the last 50 years than all the wars in which the US was engaged. Approx 10000 children injured and killed by guns every year. There are other factors which influence the situation such as the arms industry...largest in the world and the powerful Rifle Assoc but I believe that you guys just like your guns and place a higher value on them than on the lives of your children . Best Richard Richard There would have been no Revolutionary War if the good citizens didn't have firearms. We were sick of British policing. I place the highest value on my ability to defend my family. My sons now know how to protect themselves and their families. Looks like you use MSNBC for your source. Accidents are preventable. One of the things the NRA teaches is gun safety and how to secure firearms in a home. While you beat up on the NRA give us the stats on those homes where accidents occurred where they practiced NRA gun safety. We teach the same gun safety rules to police officers. Treat every firearm as loaded. Don't point a firearm at anything you don't intend to destroy or kill Keep you finger off the trigger until on target Be sure of your target and the surroundings In order for an "accident to occur that causes injury you have to violate at least two the four rules. The NRA has police firearms instructor courses and certifies firearms instructors. You have to maintain training with at least 8 hours per year in additional to remain certified. The only thing you appear to know about the NRA is what fake news tells you. I think you are mad that a bunch of armed citizens did away with oppressive policing and set up the Constitution to maintain the ability of good citizens to have the same opportunity. There are over 300,000,000 guns in this country if they were the problem I expect much higher statistics. What you should do is support that every child should be taught safety which should include firearm safety. Ignorance is the cause for most accidents. Education is the solution. Can you tell us one accident involving firearms that occurred without violating the 4 very simple firearm safety rules? Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 21, 2019 17:36:53 GMT -6
Re: "It only allows the citizenry to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self defense . . ." That is false: The 2nd Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed . . ." In the Columbia vs. Hiller Case which protected the rights of individuals to own guns without being part of a militia what is often left out by gun-rights activists is this important part: "the right to bear arms is not unlimited and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated." Justice Scalia (the darling of the right) believed that also) So, yes, we have the right to own guns but it is not "unlimited and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated. Sounds to me the government has the right to limit guns such as ARs & other kinds of weapons and types of ammunition. Good luck with thinking semiautomatics will be outlawed and confiscated. The AR-15 fires a weak rifle cartridge as compared to what my father and grandfather used in the military. The government does not have the right to tell me which firearm I can use to protect my family based upon cosmetics. It restricts full automatics but you can still buy them as long as you qualify for and pay for the tax stamp. The consensus among law enforcement officers that I have talked to is that they will not enforce any confiscation of firearms. The so called assault rifle ban that went in effect only banned manufacture and sale to the public so the the 100s of thousand out there were still out there. I owned a preban rifle and then an LE Only Colt carbine. I think we need a volunteer Sheep to go a veteran's house to take a gun away. Probably no takers. Most police officers know they will retire and know that they are only protection of their family when things start to happen. Rifles are small portion of firearms injuries and deaths and they would not impact the statistics to any degree. It's almost discrimination to accept what happens in Chicago on a weekly basis but raise a AR issue in other areas. The Virgina Tech incident was a large number of casualties using only handguns. What concerns me is what happens if it goes to civil war. Lots of people that don't own guns but want to take them from others do what to protect themselves. Do have any clue on how many incidents are prevented by law abiding citizen defending themselves with firearms? Hundreds of thousands each year? The mass shooter in Texas was shot by a law abiding citizen with an AR-15. I say thank you sir for protecting lives that this person might have taken. Two Walmart shooters were stopped before they could shoot by citizens. One was an off-duty fireman and the other a minister. Where was the praise for them. I don't think a bad guy with a shotgun is somehow better because he doesn't have an AR. Do you? Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by noggy on Aug 22, 2019 3:50:53 GMT -6
Stumbled across this by accident a while ago www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081 I have huge respect for weapons, growing up in a family where hunting and competition shooting was a big part of my grandfathers lives, and being in the army for years. I`m very thankful for the fact that I live in a country where we still don`t feel that hand guns and ARs are a necessity to protect ourselves and our families. It`s very foreign to many Europeans to live that way, therefor it is also hard to understand the thing with guns in the US, and vice versa. This thread is going places, btw All the best, Noggy
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Post by wild on Aug 22, 2019 6:50:43 GMT -6
Hi AZ
"Do you have any clue on how many incidents are prevented by law abiding citizen defending themselves with firearms? Hundreds of thousands each year?"
This is damage limitation not a solution. Hundreds of thousands of citizens face life and death situations every year according to you. This is a symptom of a dysfunctional gun culture. The people involved in halting armed incidents are themselves victims . You don't get involved in killings and walk away without trauma of some kind. Universal gun ownership raises the level of confrontation even the most benign to lethal. Homes become lethal environments where kids have their innocence taken away by weapons instruction. Are there armed guards on schools now. Are the kids trained in lockdown protocol.
The mass shootings are not just the destruction of individual life, it is a deadly assault on a community, a race, a religion even the police themselves, from which it takes the community years to recover.
To offer in defense of gun ownership the fact that some mass killer was taken out by a citizen with an AR defies logic. Who defended the mass killers right to have a machine gun in the first place?
As for being a bulwark against tyranny; your gun culture takes away your liberty. Everyday somewhere in the states there is a citizen lying spreadeagled in the roadside dirt under lethal restraint by a police officer while he checks him out to see if he is armed.
And one question ; why do police after killing a suspect then handcuff the body?
Best Richard
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 22, 2019 7:17:17 GMT -6
I never said the government should take certain guns away from citizens. I said that in the Columbia vs. Hiller case the government does have the right to limit gun onwership which Judge Scalia stated in his decision.
I believe Americans have the right to own guns. However, what kind, how soon, where and who can get them is a reasonable way to reduce gun violence and we should tighten up access to weapons. It won't stop all the killings/slaughter but may reduce them. It's better than what's going on now.
As far as the NRA it appears they are having major problems with leadership and the only time you hear from the NRA is some extremist's claims that the Government wants to take your guns away, nothing about gun safety and education. Not about hunting, not about target practice . . . just the Government wants to take your gun away.
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Post by Colt45 on Aug 22, 2019 8:01:14 GMT -6
The naivety of the way the world really works where human nature is concerned, plus the ignorance about the NRA and how it works and what it does simply astounds me.
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Post by noggy on Aug 22, 2019 9:39:47 GMT -6
The naivety of the way the world really works where human nature is concerned, plus the ignorance about the NRA and how it works and what it does simply astounds me. True and "fun" story about an American I met here in town (NB: I do NOT claim he is representative of anyone or anything but himself, I have quite liked most Americans I`ve met): He asked about metal detectors and guards at schools in Norway. I told him there were none. He was baffled, and asked about how we handled/prevented gun and knife violence at schools. I answered it wasn`t a problem here. For some reason he became kind of angry, and he managed to tell me that we should need them and we should have a problem, since that was apparently normal. Exactly why, he could not quite explain. All the best, Noggy
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 22, 2019 14:35:30 GMT -6
America leads to world in deaths by guns per capita. That's a pity and says a lot about out culture and history. After all America was built on guns and violence and here we are in 2019 and we are still killing each other by guns in record numbers. Doesn't bode well for the safety our our schools, shopping malls, churches, streets and any other public areas.
Arming every citizen certainly will result in the ease of resorting to a gun to settle any difference whether it's a parking space, who you voted for, what your favorite color is and any other disagreement.
Nothing wrong with having a gun for self-protection but it's so easy to get away with killing someone i.e., stand your ground, he "Threatened" me, he "looked" at me funny and any other reason you can come up with to use a gun.
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Post by wild on Aug 22, 2019 16:14:15 GMT -6
Colt
"Gun deaths are far inferior in number to the deaths that occur due to abortion and car accidents" Abortion and the car do not undermine or threaten the security, good order and well being of society. Drugs and guns do.
Best Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 26, 2019 4:51:22 GMT -6
America leads to world in deaths by guns per capita. That's a pity and says a lot about out culture and history. After all America was built on guns and violence and here we are in 2019 and we are still killing each other by guns in record numbers. Doesn't bode well for the safety our our schools, shopping malls, churches, streets and any other public areas. Arming every citizen certainly will result in the ease of resorting to a gun to settle any difference whether it's a parking space, who you voted for, what your favorite color is and any other disagreement. Nothing wrong with having a gun for self-protection but it's so easy to get away with killing someone i.e., stand your ground, he "Threatened" me, he "looked" at me funny and any other reason you can come up with to use a gun. That is false data. done by a professor that will not share his data. Ask to see the data not just accept what someone tells you. We are not even in the top 10 of per capita. I think you are confusing a right with something that you should have to do. You have a right to speak but you don't have to. Actually guns incidents are going down. Your data needs to be researched. The sum total of rifles as a percentage is low and ARs are even a smaller percentage of rifles. I think it is close to a racial screening viewpoint when ARs are talked about more than the guns used to kill and injure in Chicago on a weekly basis. We were promised that getting rid of Saturday Night Specials would have an impact. It did the bad guys now use more expensive and better quality firearm. If anyone thinks that AKs won't come across the border with drugs then they are ignorant of the facts. They are not manufactured here in the USA and a ban would increase their value to make them worth smuggling into this country. This country was founded with rights like no other country. The sheep make comments to unarm the sheep dog. The wolves are salivating. Here is what Benjamin Franklin states. Don't use some fake news fact check to say they could not find it. I am sure they can't find lots of things. "Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you." Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 26, 2019 5:13:56 GMT -6
Colt "Gun deaths are far inferior in number to the deaths that occur due to abortion and car accidents"
Abortion and the car do not undermine or threaten the security, good order and well being of society. Drugs and guns do. Best Richard Richard Tell that to families of person killed by a drunk driver. Are you more likely to die or be injured by a car and should you not feel threatened that drunks are out there? You really think that there is a well being of society with the high numbers of abortions? I think the well being of our society is deteriorating. What well being person goes and kills people? Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Aug 26, 2019 10:07:24 GMT -6
Hi AZ Generally speaking Guns are designed to kill and kill on a mass scale. Mass killing is intentionaL. Drunk driving is accidental killing usually with the driver also being killed. Note that mass killing is usually against a community of some sort . The gun does not discrimate , it will kill everybody. Defense against abuse of the gun is not to limit ownership but to suggest the arming of even more people, particularly in soft targets...schools churches ,supermarkets ,hospitals. I'v been to the cinema in the States and have seen armed police (is there any other kind)providing armed protection. As for preventing tyranny? ok , but universal gun ownership gives insurrectionists a great head start.... you can walk right up to a capital building armed to the teeth. Are postmen/women armed now? Metal detectors monitoring kiddies going into school?
Abortion is a totally different issue . A situation which has been with us since Adam was a boy.It is triggered by nature and determined by economical circumstances. But in no way does it threaten society ...unlike drugs for example.
I saw a program the other night about bail enforcers in the States. A camera followed two such officers. They called to a rural property in search of an offender. The offender turned out to be an obese harmless slob. He was in hiding on the property and his elderly mother [armed with a brush]and sister would not cooperate with the officers. So the officers shot them with non lethal rounds and then teasared[?] them. The officers were also armed with pistols, batons ,pepper and smoke grenades. All of which were deployed in the hunt for the trailer trash slob. And they were right because they did not know if the slob was armed.And that gentlemen is the society and environment your gun provides LETHAL.- Best Richard
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