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Post by welshofficer on Jul 12, 2015 14:59:33 GMT -6
The one thing that can un-controversially be said about the 7th cavalry in 1876 was that it was imprinted with the personality of its Lt Col in a way that would never be considered healthy in a modern combat regiment. There was clearly nepotism, but how badly in practical terms did this "Custer clan" mentality actually degrade the combat efficiency of the 5 companies that quickly disintegrated between circa 4pm and circa 4.40pm on 25 June 1876?
We know that TWC was not commanding C Company on this campaign. Did Harrington recklessly charge with C Company of his own volition and, if so, why? Was he ordered to by Keogh? If ordered by Keogh, why?
We know that Calhoun was defending steadily with L Company, until C Company got into trouble. Did the collapse of C Company do for L Company? Were L Company given advance notice of the movement by Harrington or Keogh? Why did L Company not timeously evacuate, given the distance to their horse holders? Was Calhoun constrained by orders from above?
Why did I Company put up so little resistance in the swale beyond the DR head cut? What orders had GAC given Keogh, to cause Keogh's battalion to be so widely dispersed and out of mutual support? Why did the entire Keogh battalion not evacuate northwards long before overrun? Was Keogh incompetent, constrained by GAC's orders, or independently reluctant to pull away from the rest of the regiment?
Why did E Company lose so many of their critical mounts, and end up butchered in Deep Ravine?
Why did F Company find itself fixed up on LSH, a position from which they could do little damage and actually did even less?
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 12, 2015 15:13:28 GMT -6
WO,
As you know nepotism is never good in an organization, military or civilian. It can breed distrust and/or contempt. Maybe it did here, however I think all whom you allude to here were simply following orders and a number were in way over their head. Some may have in fact been chosen because they would blindly follow orders, as their experience was lacking. Last fall I did a small post on Indian fighting experience among the officer corps, there was more experience in the pack train, pack train escort, Reno's wing, and Benteen's wing.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jul 12, 2015 15:41:45 GMT -6
This will be interesting, and I think the end result will entail pealing Custer away layer by layer like an onion. The answers at not to be found on LSH or Battle Ridge. The answers are as far back as Monroe Michigan
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Post by dave on Jul 12, 2015 16:10:44 GMT -6
Tom Could you share that post again? I joined after the fall but would like to see your ideas and information. Nepotism like incest does not bring out the best results. Merit should have been and still be the way to gain positions in the military as well as the private sector. Thanks Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Jul 12, 2015 16:24:32 GMT -6
This will be interesting, and I think the end result will entail pealing Custer away layer by layer like an onion. The answers at not to be found on LSH or Battle Ridge. The answers are as far back as Monroe Michigan You mean like that Custer was narcissistic, which is why he had to surround himself with a clan of admirers. He doesn't seem to have much of a tolerance for people who disagree with him and was rather ruthless with the way he dealt with a few. It makes me wonder why if he and Benteen were such 'bitter enemies" Custer didn't do something about getting rid of Benteen. He had a whole clan of yes men who would willingly back any charges he could bring like drunkenness. Perhaps either Custer felt Benteen had more powerful friends somewhere or perhaps the feud between them became greatly exaggerated with time. I'm not saying they were best friends, just that perhaps they were able to work together--begrudgingly.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 12, 2015 17:09:34 GMT -6
Would Jimmy Calhoun, have gotten a commission in the post ACW reduced Army. He applied for a commission in May of 1865, but was found unqualified by the examining board! He remained a 1st SGT until July, 67 when he got a commission, with the 32nd Infantry. When the Army was reorganized in 1870 he was unassigned until he met Maggie Custer and bingo he got an assignment! Bet you can't guess where.
W.W. Cooke participated in Dinwiddie Court House, Saylers Creek, Five Forks, battles at the end of the war. He was discharged on 25 June, 1865 and returned home to Canada. He was commissioned 2nd LT. of the newly formed 7th Cavalry and reported on 16 November 1866. I wonder who he reported to in those ACW, final actions.
Tom Custer was an made an officer, 2nd LT of Company B of the 6th Michigan Cavalry at age 19 and a half. Tom was obviously a brave man and earned hi spurs. He was a gambler, boozer, and was bamboozled by Hickok in 1869. He owed it all to big brother, the good and the bad. Oh did I leave out that they had the same parents?
G.W.M. Yates struck up a friendship with Custer in Michigan, and Custer got him a job on Pleasaton's staff in May of 63. After the war in May of 1866 Yates was able to obtain a 2nd LT slot in the 2nd Cavalry. A year later Custer got him the gig of captain in the 7th Cavalry. He reported in November of 67. He was made commander of Company F.
I don't know if any of the rest owed anything to GAC.
Regards, Tom
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Post by welshofficer on Jul 12, 2015 17:29:28 GMT -6
WO, As you know nepotism is never good in an organization, military or civilian. It can breed distrust and/or contempt. Maybe it did here, however I think all whom you allude to here were simply following orders and a number were in way over their head. Some may have in fact been chosen because they would blindly follow orders, as their experience was lacking. Last fall I did a small post on Indian fighting experience among the officer corps, there was more experience in the pack train, pack train escort, Reno's wing, and Benteen's wing. Regards, Tom Tom,
But where does Keogh fit into this nepotism?
Was he incompetent from 4pm? Was he given incompetent orders by GAC, and was incompetent in not disobeying them?
Or was he just desperately reluctant to move even further away from the rest of the regiment, a rising sense of unease.....??
Keogh was not overtly hostile towards Reno (1874 Northern Boundary Commission survey) or Benteen?
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 12, 2015 17:46:06 GMT -6
I have mixed emotions about Keogh. When was he shot, was he trying to control the entire situation on top of that ridge? Did the command collapse upon itself after he was moved to the rear. I have seen his ACW record, he was not a schulb. Then again, did his bad day coincide with that of his boss.
Benteen and Keogh were closer than Benteen was with most other officers. Keogh was the outlier with Custer that day. Custer was close with Weir and Moylan, Keogh's time in grade put him where he was!
Regards, Tom
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Post by welshofficer on Jul 12, 2015 17:54:28 GMT -6
Tom,
There are more unanswered questions about Keogh's performance that day than about any other officer barring GAC.
Was he incompetent? Did GAC's orders give him no freedom of movement? Was he wounded, and that left a command vacuum with lowly Calhoun, Harrington, Porter, and Crittenden?
Or was he simply getting queasy about the distance GAC was placing with the left wing and instinctively reluctant to move further north and got overwhelmed...?
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 12, 2015 18:03:37 GMT -6
WO, Love your questions. What would have Benteen done in Keogh's place, if wounded? What would have Keogh done in Benteen's place if he had come upon Reno! I know it is not polite to answer a question with a question. Forgive me.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Jul 12, 2015 18:09:59 GMT -6
I know I go between the mindset that Keogh was injured early in the engagement or he found himself spread so thin that he was unable to concentrate on any one problem--either way the whole incident with Keogh probably happened so quickly it was akin to a tidal wave washing over a shore.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 12, 2015 18:10:59 GMT -6
Let me answer my own questions. Keogh would have done what Benteen did. Benteen would have either fallen back on Custer, found a better place to defend, or died in situ. Death would have probably have been dealt in at least two of Benteen's options.
Regards, om
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Post by Beth on Jul 12, 2015 18:29:04 GMT -6
Who would have nominated Tom Custer for his Medals of Honor?
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Post by dave on Jul 12, 2015 18:41:28 GMT -6
WO/Tom What responsibility if any does Keogh bear for the "Gap" between him and Custer? Regards Dave
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Post by welshofficer on Jul 12, 2015 18:51:07 GMT -6
WO/Tom What responsibility if any does Keogh bear for the "Gap" between him and Custer? Regards Dave Dave,
As Keogh was about to be overwhelmed from Ford B (primarily) and from Ford C, his responsibility was to evacuate and get to GAC.
There was no significance to the terrain he was holding about 4pm. Once GAC turned north at Ford B about an hour earlier, nobody from the rest of the regiment was coming after about 10-15 mins of that event.
What we will never know is what orders GAC gave Keogh at Calhoun Hill, before he went on his northern excursion towards Ford D.
WO
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