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Post by fred on Jul 25, 2014 6:32:53 GMT -6
I still think the note was more of an exhortation than a formal order... In the military, "exhortation" by a superior officer = order. There is no equivocation, no debate, no discussion: that note was an order. It contained three elements: come, be quick about it, and bring the packs. That's an order. You cannot apply civilian logic to it; there is no rationalization... nothing. When the boss says "come," you do so. No discussion, DC. Believe me, take it from me. If I had issued that note and my subordinate dallied for whatever reason, I would have relieved him. I did it twice in Vietnam and my "requirements" were verbal, without even the force of being written. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jul 25, 2014 7:03:26 GMT -6
I'll go ahead and order and hope for delivery in early 2015. Thank you, Colt. That is very kind of you... and certainly flattering. Here is some timing to mull over: 2:48 PM Benteen reaches the Little Big Horn and has now seen friendly Indians on the bluffs just north of Reno Creek. These scouts direct him toward Reno Hill.... 2:49 PM After viewing the LBH valley and the hills to the north, Custer drops off Keogh with instructions to deploy his battalion and protect Custer's rear, then heads toward the river with HQ and Yates' battalion. [This is on Luce Ridge and Custer is now heading toward the bluff overlooking Ford B.] As for Reno, is has already arrived on Reno Hill and his troops are struggling to join him. What is very interesting here... to me, anyway... is your perception of what is going on. If you go back and read the rest of your post, you will see the "sea" you are foundering in. That is not a criticism, Colt; it points out to me, however, your quandary and that of so many others trying to figure out what is going on, trying to fit events, locations, people side-by-side, trying to understand "context" and how events coincided and influenced one another. When you get the book, you will find 25 separate timing charts. The original document contained 480 separate events, but if you add all of them up in the charts, you will find 800 entries. That means duplication, but duplication used to explain and compare. You will also see-- in certain specific timing charts-- some events hi-lighted in "gray." Those are concurrent events in other parts of the field, placed in the chart to show the reader what was happening elsewhere. To me, the importance of the book is not in the text, not in the body, but in the timing charts and the maps. I intended originally to use seven maps, but when I asked my daughter to do them for me, we-- through her suggestions-- wound up with 12. One of the maps is a composite of four others. Those four show where men fell on four separate locations of the Custer field. Each body is marked by a cross and there are three areas where those crosses are clumped together (can you guess where?). The other bodies are spread out, eliminating the 42 that do not belong there. If the book is worth a damn, it is because of those two main features. The maps-- limited somewhat by space-- nonetheless show where men died and are a damn sight more accurate than anything you have ever seen before. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 25, 2014 7:24:12 GMT -6
Fred, It sounds like the book delivers exactly what we need, the ability to show where everyone was at any given point in time. Kind of like being able to watch the battle's different locations simultaneously on multiple tv screens, live as it happens at each different site. Now I really can't wait to get my hands on the book.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 25, 2014 11:59:21 GMT -6
Yan Taylor:
"Note scribbled in haste" . . . could it be because Cooke was on a horse and holding a small notepad(book) that the note "Looks" like it was written in haste? The only witness to all this is Martini who changed his "story" several times. At first he said at the RCOI that he saw Custer and Cooke discussing something then Cooke called him over to give a note to pass on to Benteen. Later, Martini stated that he personally was given an oral order from Custer. Either way a written note (order) was given to Martini to take to Benteen and if the way was clear for Martini to return to do so. Martini never returned but stayed with Benteen. If the way was clear sounds like there was no danger at the time the note was written, no Indians attacking, and no need to rush writing a note. If Cooke's horse was edgy it may have influenced the appearance of the note as something hastily written. Only speculation on my part.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 26, 2014 12:44:07 GMT -6
Crzhrs; you could be right, a horse would make your writing hand slur about, but as I said earlier, I don’t think they were under any Indian pressure and it could be that Custer wanted to move and keep moving, any stop for couriers and notes would be brief.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 30, 2014 11:36:39 GMT -6
Every time I see a discussion develop over "THE NOTE" I think to myself WHY, WHY, WHY. WHY am I attracted to the discussion? WHY does one spend time trying to decipher the military communications equivalent of horse dung? WHY did I not take a nap rather than read this entire thread. Salient points:
There is no such thing in military life as an exhortation ----- PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION.
AN ORDER IS AN ORDER regardless of being verbal, neatly composed and presented, or written in haste on a piece of toilet paper. If your commander tells you to have a Merry Christmas, you had better damned site start singing Jingle Bells. Orders may be countermanded by proper authority, by another officer senior to you, or you may see fit to not obey an order due to the fact that the order since issued has been overcome by. events, not known at the time the order was issued. In either event the person countermanding the order had better be right, and his/her judgment sound, because Leavenworth is not going to make the pages of Better Homes and Gardens.
All this of course demands that the order be clear, concise, and directive in nature stating who, what, when, where, why, and if need be how. The note to Benteen met only one of those six criteria WHO, that being Benteen. That note is not clear, concise, and directive. It does not meet the minimal standard of military communications, that being a clear expression of intent. It is therefore worthless as an order, and even more worthless as a tool to determine anything more about this battle other than it was sent. The proof of what I just said is backed up by the fact that its meaning has been debated for 138 years with no clearly determined result, therefore the paper itself and the content are meaningless to understanding. The underlying purpose of an order is to be understood.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 30, 2014 14:20:27 GMT -6
Fred brings up a very interesting hypothetical. What if Custer's location and situation were known by both Reno and Benteen, would Reno have the lawful authority to countermand Custer's whatever it was, and tell Benteen to remain on Reno Hill and assist him (Reno) in the reconstitution process, before doing anything else?
I will differ here with Fred. Reno would have ALL THE AUTHORITY to countermand that order and make it stick. The order so issued was lawful. It was based upon Reno's best judgment presumably. Reno was senior in rank and senior on that part of the field and was out of communication with the overall commander. Those circumstances collectively add up to all the authority required to issue a lawful order and expect to have it obeyed under either the then existing Articles of War or the modern Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Tom I am for those things you listed, and I will include hamburgers, and the retention of the Washington Redskins name, along with motherhood. Orders and sound judgment must go hand in hand. The military is not a ladies book discussion group, nor is it a debating society. What it also is not is a place where blind obedience, regardless or circumstance overcomes, in fact erases the application of discernment, the thinking through of a given situation and its implications, and the exercise of sound judgment, sometimes in spite of higher directive. Every officer commissioned has a phrase written in that commission to the effect of "having great faith in the abilities and judgment" That's what the hell it means - you are supposed to have it and we expect you to use it.
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Post by fred on Jul 30, 2014 14:31:04 GMT -6
I will differ here with Fred. Reno would have ALL THE AUTHORITY to countermand that order and make it stick. Isn't that what I said...? Or did I mess up a post? I totally agree with your statement, above. Where did I go wrong or where is the misunderstanding? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 30, 2014 15:09:52 GMT -6
Fred: What you said in your post "If Custer's location was known and his situation was known, Reno would have no authority to change that order"
We differ in that I think under those circumstances he would have all the authority necessary to change that order given he was both senior to Benteen, senior officer on that portion of the field, and out of contact with the overall commander. That makes any order he gives a lawful order, EVEN if he is fully aware of Custer's location and situation.
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jpru
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Post by jpru on Oct 13, 2014 18:35:42 GMT -6
I copied this from what I posted in the "in defense of benteen" thread
It'd be really interesting if GAC had left an officer or NCO (from HQ) with instructions to guide benteen and his Bn wherever GAC wanted him to go. I wonder why GAC didn't? Imagine if Tom Custer or Cooke or CSM Sharrow came galloping (only a visual please don't crucify me for horse doctrinal terms)up to Benteen prior to or during the LU with Reno saying that Custer really needs him up North pronto follow me? I wonder why GAC didn't?
Question: Did Benteen ever send anyone forward after Martini arrived with Cooke's note to find out what was going on? if Benteen didn't then I think he should have.
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Post by welshofficer on Oct 13, 2014 19:14:18 GMT -6
jpru,
If GAC's order is countermanded by Reno, who is senior to Benteen, it is no longer Benteen's arse on the line. But an arse remains on the line.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Oct 13, 2014 22:40:15 GMT -6
Jon there are only two, make that three possible answers to the question you asked.
1) He had no intention that Benteen should come to him. Remember what Martin said - He was told - If it is safe come back. If not remain with your company. There is a lot of unexplored meat in that statement. Why wouldn't it be safe if Martini was coming back with Benteen? Why would he be given the option of staying with his company? Don't know. May be meaningless, but I have never seen it discussed here before.
2) Custer wants Benteen with him but does not think it necessary to send a guide, other than Martini of course who apparently has no instructions to lead Benteen to Custer.
3) Custer screwed up and did not do what would be the obvious thing to do under the circumstances that being sending someone senior back to Benteen to not only guide him to where he is needed but also get him up to speed on the situation.
As far as obeying the order to come. Benteen was senior to anyone who could possibly sent to him as a messenger/guide. Once he came upon Reno and his situation. Benteen would have the authority to countermand, or delay implementation of Custer's order. Reno could have also done so.
As to your second question, not that I know of.
Ass on the line. Nothing at all wrong with putting your ass on the line, as long as your decision is correct. It's when you make the incorrect decision, that it can sting. Be sure in your own mind what you are doing is correct, and even if you get hung out to dry you can live with yourself.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 14, 2014 2:50:01 GMT -6
Chuck I have toyed with the notion of Benteen struggling along Cedar Coulee with packs in tow for a while now, apart from being arduous, the journey would I expect be very slow, but I cannot see any other reason for the defence (be it temporary or not) of Calhoun/Custer ridge except for a rallying point for Benteen, if the ford was a concern then just nullify the threat by moving away from the location, they are a cavalry unit after all, so why sit and wait for your enemy to surround you.
Ian.
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jpru
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Post by jpru on Oct 14, 2014 7:24:56 GMT -6
All - I think your comments on this thread concerning the "note" do a good job of articulating and reinforcing the point that communication between GAC and his subordinates was poor.
I read somewhere here that fred thinks that GAC did not feel threatened per say while he was moving north. (I apologize if Im incorrect here). when GAC was giving martini his message for benteen I wonder why Cooke didn't take a few more moments to write something in better detail? As DC has pointed out the Yates and keogh columns were x meters long and would have taken a few moments to move past Cooke and martini if he had paused longer to write something. Cooke would then be towards the rear of one of the BNs but he could work his way forward. I understand that they were in a hurry butwhat is the general sense of why this was done so hastily?
Please point me to the right thread if you all have kicked this one to death. Cheers Jon
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jpru
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Post by jpru on Oct 14, 2014 7:35:58 GMT -6
Chuck and WO. I agree. I think if the note better articulated what GAC wanted benteen to do once he rejoined the regiment or if someone from HQ was there to relay to benteen task purpose and intent then we'd all being having a different conversation because benteen would have found himself in a different set of circumstances when he came up on Reno.
But in the absence of clear orders and situational awareness I think you get what happened.
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