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Post by tubman13 on Jul 19, 2014 17:36:20 GMT -6
He was concerned and harried, even if Custer was not or maybe angry.
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Post by fred on Jul 19, 2014 18:00:04 GMT -6
C'mon, you guys. Before this thread gets out of hand and knowing this note business has always been some titillating thrill for those who want to read all sorts of things into it, the note-- as shown-- is very straightforward. The only thing missing is the circumstances under which the note was written. So here they are, as I see them.... Draw your own conclusions.
(1) Custer saw Reno advancing in the valley.
(2) Indians were backing away.
(3) He may or may not have seen dust from Benteen's movements... personally, I do not believe Custer saw any dust from Benteen.
(4) Custer was going to move north to find a suitable crossing point.
(5) He knew everything was to the north and Benteen's scouting mission was no longer necessary.
(6) There was a mood of euphoria: "We've got 'em boys!"
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by mac on Jul 20, 2014 2:59:10 GMT -6
People do want to analyse this note like it is a haiku! (not you in this case laref) The purpose lies in fred's point 5. Custer knew Benteen was wasted out there and wanted him to rejoin while protecting the packs. That is what Benteen did!
Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 20, 2014 7:25:44 GMT -6
I guess I am the only one that sees a K in both of Cooke's packs
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 20, 2014 12:34:15 GMT -6
Steve your eyes do not deceive you, as it say’s;
Benteen.
Come on. Big Village.
Be Quick. Bring Packs.
P.S. Bring Pack.
W.W. Cook.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 21, 2014 6:19:39 GMT -6
Steve your eyes do not deceive you, as it say’s; Benteen.
Come on. Big Village.
Be Quick. Bring Packs.
P.S. Bring Pack.
W.W. Cook.Ian. I think if you look at the second there is a small s on the end of it |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 21, 2014 6:27:48 GMT -6
Ian, As I understand the note history, Benteen was concerned it was fading and copied the Cooke note in ink above the original. If you compare the handwriting on Benteen's map which you have posted before - it's clear (to me) Benteen wrote that. So what we have is Cooke's note: Benteen Come on big village be quick Bring pack WW Cooke PS bring pacs Just tried to contact Chuck, no answer. Will try again later, Best, c. That Benteen wrote on it does not change what Cooke wrote. Look at the end of Cooke signature and look at the end of the second packs. In his name it is ke on the end and in the second ks but it is similar. Just means to me he wrote the k in the second pack the same as he signed his name. Regards AZ Ranger |
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Post by fred on Jul 21, 2014 9:31:52 GMT -6
Let's do a little play-acting here, OK?
You... all of you who are reading this... are Fred Benteen. OK?
You have been given three companies as a battalion and you have received your orders to scout the bluffs and valleys off to your left. You leave and you march on, let's say, for one mile.
That's the first act of the play...
What do you know? Or better put, what don't you know?
Well for one thing, you have no idea Custer has subdivided the regiment any further. You have no idea Reno has a specific command; no idea Custer has a plan... all you do know is that you are seeing nothing at this point but hills and dales.
Now... let's skip forward to somewhere between the lone tepee and the morass. You move on. What do you know now?
You know... or are pretty certain... there are no Indians to the south; that virtually everything is north, probably exactly where you suspected they would be all along.
You pass the lone tepee. Suddenly a sergeant gallops up and tells you he has a message for the packs. You tell him the packs are way behind you... oh, and by the way, what's cooking?
"Oh, Captain... we have them on the run!"
From your experience, it sounds like a diminishing battle somewhere off in the distance. Your officers agree. You move on. Then, in about a half-mile, one of your own troopers comes riding up and hands you a note. "What's going on, Martini?!" "Oh, the Indians are running, Sir!"
You read the note. It tells you three things: (1) there's a big village... [well, you already know that! You've been following a massive trail!]; (2) you need to hurry; and (3) bring the packs.
Now what do you know?
Well, by the sound of it, the enemy has been engaged. Reports-- from two men-- indicate the enemy is in retreat. And... and this is a big "and"... your actions in terminating your scout when you did have been vindicated-- or validated-- by the sheer fact you received this note.
So... we move on. Because you hear all this gunfire, you hurry to the river to see what you can in the valley. What you see doesn't really jibe with what you have just been told. True, the valley is shrouded in dust and smoke and what you are seeing is some 1 1/2 to 2 miles away, but it appears contradictory. Suddenly, you see some of the regimental scouts motioning you to head up the hills rather than go into the valley. This seems the more prudent course, simply because you cannot really make out what's going on down below. So you head up the hills....
Questions...
(1) Where in that note does it say to support Reno?
(2) Where in that note does it say Reno is no longer with Custer?
(3) Where in that note does it say for you to pull into the valley and run up on Reno's left?
(4) Where in that note does it say for you to go... other than to the guy who wrote the note?
(5) Where in that note does it give you any idea of what's going on?
(6) Where in that note does it indicate any semblance of a plan?
(7) Where in that note does it tell you to do anything other than, "be quick"; "bring the packs"; and the obvious, "big village"?
(8) What would you have done were you Fred Benteen?
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 21, 2014 10:53:36 GMT -6
I would initially head up the hills. But since there is something going on in the valley, I would also have sent someone that direction to ascertain just what the heck is going on down on the valley. I do this precisely because I don't know that Custer and Reno have split up. I don't know that Reno went into the valley and Custer went up the bluffs. I also know there is shooting in the valley, but not up the bluffs where the scouts are wanting me to go. This contradiction makes me seek flexibility in my next move - go to the sound of the guns, or follow the scouts. Initially I follow the scouts, but want to know if I might need to go into the valley, where logic dictates the village will be. My assumption is the scouts have come from Custer. I don't know that most of the scouts were sent with Reno.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 21, 2014 12:04:01 GMT -6
Questions 1-7 answers: NOWHERE
Question 8: After looking at the note then looking at Martini, then looking back at the note, I would have said: "Idiot!" (Custer) and done what history tells us Benteen did.
One can blame anyone after the fact and with hindsight . . . but unless you were there and were given a cryptic message all Benteen could have done was throw his hands up in the air and try to find someone . . . anyone to report to.
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Post by fred on Jul 21, 2014 12:48:46 GMT -6
I think those are both fine answers, especially yours, Horse.
Yours as well, Colt, but let me ask you this. Who, how many, and why would you send someone into the valley, when you could see everything you needed to see from the bluff's edge?
Personally, I am not sending any of my men into harm's way until I know exactly what's going on.
Remember the situation... you have two people telling you everything is going well, yet there is some sort of question raised when you look into the valley. You have no mission defined yet, other than what is in the note. And you have a dichotomy of perception in front of you, visual vs. oral. That was the real "horns of the dilemma." I am not sending a set-of-fours anywhere until I know what's up, especially if what I am observing seems to be the retreat of other troopers. Remember as well, there was a tremendous amount of smoke and dust obscuring the drama in the valley.
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 21, 2014 13:19:27 GMT -6
Custer sent two messengers to Benteen telling to keep on going which he did only to realize that there was nothing there and turned back. Kanipe (maybe a messenger . . . maybe not) shows up then Martini a legit messenger arrives, both giving optimistic reports with messages for Benteen to bring packs with the stipulation to be quick . . . but be quick to who and where is not revealed. Kanipe and Martini give no additional info on what's taking place and Benteen is probably fuming as to just what he's suppose to do. As a professional and admired office he did the right thing by keeping his command together, proceeding in an orderly and deliberate fashion not knowing what to expect if anything. Up till that time no gunfire was heard and Benteen can only assume the rest of the command is cleaning house against the Indians and he's stuck in no-where land and bringing up the rear. "Idiot" must still be ringing in Benteen's head. By the time he finds out what has happened "Idiot" is still ringing loud and clear in his head and Benteen et al would have to deal with the mess.
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 21, 2014 14:11:20 GMT -6
Fred, the key is what you stated - there was a lot of smoke and dust obscuring the valley, so what could Benteen really see? The bluff's edge may have revealed something going on, but not exactly what due to the obscured vision. By sending someone to the valley for a quick look-see, I am only referring to a couple of troopers, not a whole unit. If the troopers come back telling of an ass-kicking going on in the valley (not the breakout to the bluffs yet), maybe moving to the valley is the best option. If the troopers come back (all the while Benteen should still be moving up the bluffs) telling of the Reno movement up the bluffs, then continue up the bluffs at an accelerated pace, if possible.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 21, 2014 14:20:29 GMT -6
Well if I was Benteen and the only intel I knew was that the village was running, plus of course a note to bring along the packs, then I would be gob-smacked to find Reno and his battalion, demoralised on a hill side, one thing I would be sure about is that the enemy is not running, and if Reno had filled me in with what he faced down in valley, then I would be very cautious, very cautious indeed about moving my 110+ men down that valley, in fact before I sent anyone anywhere, I would think about sending a scout detail to find out what was happening, to do this I would summon Martini and ask him to show the scouts where Custer’s trail started.
Ian.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 21, 2014 14:35:44 GMT -6
Yan: Benteen didn't know anything about any fight other than a note saying a "Big Village". No attack order, no Indians running, nothing about a further separation of the command, just a cryptic note brought by a Italian immigrant whose grasp of English was according to Martini at the RCOI of not being very good at that time and being even more not very good at the time of the LBH. Benteen was in the dark and acted accordingly with a go-slow approach rather than rush pell-mell into something that may or may not be underway somewhere out there.
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