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Post by tubman13 on Jul 24, 2014 13:55:19 GMT -6
I'm for exhortation and the 2nd amendment, pro choice, pro death penalty, closing the boarders, and apple pie. The note was not an order, in my opinion! I would like to hear Fred's and Chuck's opinion as they don't seem to feel Custer felt any real pressure/threat until sometime after this point. I on the other hand as an EM and serving would have considered it an order until I felt Reno countermanded that order.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 24, 2014 13:58:15 GMT -6
Chris, Carl, you served. How would you perceive it?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 24, 2014 14:31:46 GMT -6
With all due respect, I think it a mistake to imagine receiving such a note these days as being similar to back then. These days, you get info quick (when you get it at all) and you'd interpret stuff differently, I'd hope. If there's an issue, you can immediately inform or ask.
Then, we start with the delay and issues provided by the mules in train assumed but not known to be nearish Benteen. You send a message by courier, the issues are: did he make it at all? Did he not screw up the message and get it to the correct officer? What circumstances is that officer and command in on reception? And, you have zero clue till they appear or not. Since Custer could have no idea where he'd be in - what? - a half hour or 45 minutes or longer, all he can do is bring the players to the end of the field where the game is and count upon their qualities.
Among other things, if anyone read that over the air, in code or otherwise, or received it on paper, I would expect that there would be penalty: no time, no location, no instruction or information of much merit (A big village!) and yet repetitive in only 12 words. Tough to do. Don't think Custer or Cooke was drunk or derelict, just saying the game's on, putter forth me hearties in prudent and professional manner, as ever. And, I cannot believe that they'd fail to take the necessary milliseconds to jot down some, you know, juicy detail to punch it up. Another minute with the pencil would have been helpful IF INDEED IT WAS INTENDED FOR MORE THAN AN EXHORTATION. And, I don't think it was.
If Martin's horse bled more, gave out, and he had to walk and Benteen didn't get the note till later, what would the whine be today: that Martin killed Custer by not dashing the last few miles in his boots, a modern Pheidippides at Marathon? Really, the note doesn't help Custer when he keeps opening distance and operating in his own kinetic field of activity away from Reno and any succor. And, that I think had to be understood by Custer and he
would not do so.
If he could help it. This dividing his five companies and doing zip but extending already high vulnerability isn't a sane decision by an Army officer given that only would make sense if the enemy was bolting. Whatever else, I'm putting my money down that an early observation was "Say, anyone notice they're still here, not running, and multiplying in proximity? Just me?" Any of them.
It makes much sense they were deflected and could not recover coherence or mass, possibly due to companies acting on their own sooner than normally granted.
Again: Red Horse noted Indians in soldier clothing fighting with soldiers on LSH, and this atop the other unquestioned accounts of their existence. The shoed hoofprints, the artifacts, the accounts of soldiers near the river or in the village are most likely just the runaway mounts and the cross dressers. They appeared with guidons and bugles around Reno that night. It happened, and it easily explains a great deal that otherwise requires contrived and - bluntly - unlikely and silly moves for such a seriously outnumbered group. It fails the snowball fight test.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 24, 2014 16:14:36 GMT -6
No matter how many times I look at that note, it always looks like it was scribbled in haste, maybe you can miss interpret haste for anticipation or even anxiousness, but either way it looks like it was scribbled and scribbled quick.
And why would he be so quick to write it, maybe Custer had just seen the village and he wanted to up the ante to get into a position to attack, after he left to go down the coulees (Cedar & MTC) I don’t think would be able to see what was going on down in the village till he reach the bottom of MTC, so up to that point he would have no idea if they village was running or attacking.
Oh and Happy Birthday "Colt"
Ian.
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 24, 2014 16:17:24 GMT -6
The note was from Custer's adjutant, which means it's from Custer. It says be quick and bring packs. That is an order by any standard. I also served in the Army and if I had received a note like that from my commander, I would take it as an order, not as a suggestion or recommendation or request. In military protocol, if a senior officer or nco asks a subordinate if they could do something, or would they mind doing something, that has the force of an order, and every subordinate treats it as such, or else that subordinate will have a very short career. The old saying is "if an officer is a gentleman, and he is the superior, he ignores rank. An officer, if he is a gentleman and is the subordinate, never forgets rank." That old saying is generally applied in social settings and informal gatherings. When on duty, everything the commander says to subordinates is an order, whether written or orally so stated.
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 24, 2014 16:21:05 GMT -6
Thank you, Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 24, 2014 16:57:05 GMT -6
The note was from Custer's adjutant, which means it's from Custer. It says be quick and bring packs. That is an order by any standard. I also served in the Army and if I had received a note like that from my commander, I would take it as an order, not as a suggestion or recommendation or request. In military protocol, if a senior officer or nco asks a subordinate if they could do something, or would they mind doing something, that has the force of an order, and every subordinate treats it as such, or else that subordinate will have a very short career. The old saying is "if an officer is a gentleman, and he is the superior, he ignores rank. An officer, if he is a gentleman and is the subordinate, never forgets rank." That old saying is generally applied in social settings and informal gatherings. When on duty, everything the commander says to subordinates is an order, whether written or orally so stated. Well, as an EM I must have been right, as a civilian bystander I would have failed the test. Thanks, Colt. Regards, Tom
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 24, 2014 17:01:31 GMT -6
Benteen took it as an order, said so under oath, and obeyed it. He brought the train forth asap without entering into a share program with the Sioux. Great. Custer told Martin if he could get through, return to him, otherwise stay with his company. I doubt he thought he'd have to explain the same to Benteen and risk ammo, food, supplies, and his spare horse with mules wending their way through the throng.
But, as an order, there was no time, location, explanation of what was happening or Custer wanted to happen. It wasn't telling Benteen to rush to Custer's side regardless of circumstance, it wasn't calling for ammo. The packs were now accessible and protected near atop the village. The "order" was obeyed, but beyond 'bring'(2x), 'come on', 'be quick', what else was there to obey? Absent specifics, it was merely an exhortation to do what he did. There's no difference in possible compliance between the two.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 24, 2014 17:09:00 GMT -6
DC, no argument!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 24, 2014 17:22:30 GMT -6
Order or not, the game changer was coming across Reno and his demoralised command, Benteen may have threw that note away because his immediate concerns were there right in front of him, Reno needed help and the pack was still coming up, two reasons to take stock of the situation. Your Welcome Colt, many happy returns.
Ian.
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Carl
Full Member
Posts: 125
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2014 18:16:57 GMT -6
Chris, Carl, you served. How would you perceive it? An order. The bring packs part only. Big vallage is informational not an order. Come on, be quick are exhortational, since they are in essence SOP.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 25, 2014 5:48:05 GMT -6
Excellent!
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Post by fred on Jul 25, 2014 6:09:20 GMT -6
Benteen took it as an order, said so under oath, and obeyed it. He brought the train forth asap without entering into a share program with the Sioux. Great. Custer told Martin if he could get through, return to him, otherwise stay with his company. I doubt he thought he'd have to explain the same to Benteen and risk ammo, food, supplies, and his spare horse with mules wending their way through the throng. But, as an order, there was no time, location, explanation of what was happening or Custer wanted to happen. It wasn't telling Benteen to rush to Custer's side regardless of circumstance, it wasn't calling for ammo. The packs were now accessible and protected near atop the village. The "order" was obeyed, but beyond 'bring'(2x), 'come on', 'be quick', what else was there to obey? Absent specifics, it was merely an exhortation to do what he did. There's no difference in possible compliance between the two. Amen!
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Post by fred on Jul 25, 2014 6:18:07 GMT -6
... if I had received a note like that from my commander, I would take it as an order, not as a suggestion or recommendation or request. In military protocol, if a senior officer or nco asks a subordinate if they could do something, or would they mind doing something, that has the force of an order, and every subordinate treats it as such, or else that subordinate will have a very short career. The old saying is "if an officer is a gentleman, and he is the superior, he ignores rank. An officer, if he is a gentleman and is the subordinate, never forgets rank." That old saying is generally applied in social settings and informal gatherings. When on duty, everything the commander says to subordinates is an order, whether written or orally so stated. I was an officer-- ten years worth-- and I know an order when I smell one. Your post, above, Colt, is essentially correct. The only place I might disagree is, "... if an officer is a gentleman, and he is the superior, he ignores rank." I never forgot rank. No one below my rank ever dared to call me anything but my rank or sir. And that went for private affairs, as well. Then again, I was an absolute stickler for military protocol... and I had the ammo to back me. On the other hand, Colt, I have no issue with what you said, above. By the way, make sure you apply the exact same logic to Terry's instructions/orders to Custer. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jul 25, 2014 6:25:56 GMT -6
The note was not an order, in my opinion! I would like to hear Fred's and Chuck's opinion as they don't seem to feel Custer felt any real pressure/threat until sometime after this point. I on the other hand as an EM and serving would have considered it an order until I felt Reno countermanded that order. Tom, The note was clearly an order. It lost its force as such when Benteen ran into Reno. Why? Because Reno was Benteen's superior and could countermand the order because no one knew the commander's whereabouts or situation. If Custer's location was known and his situation was known, Reno would have no authority to change that order. That was not, however, the case here. What you find in all of this is the argument from the wild-eyed abjectly-pro-Custer contingent that both Benteen and Reno knew precisely where GAC was and what his situation was. Their argument loses force however, with the accounts we read of everyone who had something to say about it. Best wishes, Fred.
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