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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 17:58:13 GMT -6
WO posted:
GAC would have wanted the press to report upon his "great victory", not the abandoned mutilated corpse of their sole reporter in the process.
Good point! Best, c.
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Post by Colt45 on May 4, 2014 18:08:28 GMT -6
Laref, Your undesignated drainage area is one of the possible places I would envision Custer moving down to looking for a ford. The other is on the left of the picture where the red x is. From the cemetery area you can see the terrain dropping off toward the river and those two points are ones I would consider looking at if I were Custer (and had been dumb enough to let things get to this point). I would guess Kellogg died in the general area of the undesignated drainage area, as I believe it would be seen as a more direct route to the north end of the village than the one farther north. Both those places are great access points for the NAs, but not good for cavalry due to the narrowness. Crossing in column, probably no more than 2 abreast, doesn't lend itself to an effective charge. I still think the NAs probably used both to give Custer no option but moving back to LSH.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 18:17:57 GMT -6
Colt, Another possibility is the "undesignated drainage" came from the establishment of the cemetery and grounds, therefore 'new' - and means squat to the battle. Taking my DC hat off and hitting the sack! Best, c.
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Post by tubman13 on May 4, 2014 18:32:18 GMT -6
Good night, Mr. negative #2. 5am comes early!
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Post by mac on May 4, 2014 18:52:37 GMT -6
The position and state of Kellogg's body is interesting in this context. There is debate as to the state, clothed, not clothed, scalped, not scalped and so on. Found near the ravine, found in the ravine. My money is on it being isolated and relatively unscathed, probably scalped, but there was probably some clothing and certainly his notes were found which suggests not too much interference. What it does tell us is that probably he was not killed in close combat but perhaps picked off by a shot and fell and was essentially unnoticed. Certainly the prospect of him having escaped from LSH at the end is in my view unlikely thus adding weight to the notion that there was a Northern tour by Custer. Cheers
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Post by welshofficer on May 4, 2014 19:21:49 GMT -6
The position and state of Kellogg's body is interesting in this context. There is debate as to the state, clothed, not clothed, scalped, not scalped and so on. Found near the ravine, found in the ravine. My money is on it being isolated and relatively unscathed, probably scalped, but there was probably some clothing and certainly his notes were found which suggests not too much interference. What it does tell us is that probably he was not killed in close combat but perhaps picked off by a shot and fell and was essentially unnoticed. Certainly the prospect of him having escaped from LSH at the end is in my view unlikely thus adding weight to the notion that there was a Northern tour by Custer. Cheers Mac,
That is my view. Furthermore, that he was shot when it was impossible to recover his corpse for one of any number of reasons (e.g. it was too late before GAC knew he was down, the NA pressure was sufficient to make corpse recovery impractical, things were negatively developing as such that GAC was beyond securing any corpses).
WO
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Post by welshofficer on May 4, 2014 19:25:13 GMT -6
How many markers, WO, 33, 37 what? Tubman13
Enough to constitute most of Keogh's I and a few more of the remnants from the other 2 companies (1st Sgt Bobo etc), and all out of sight of E and F unless there were any troopers stationed on LSH and which I think unlikely.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on May 4, 2014 19:39:40 GMT -6
Laref, Your undesignated drainage area is one of the possible places I would envision Custer moving down to looking for a ford. The other is on the left of the picture where the red x is. From the cemetery area you can see the terrain dropping off toward the river and those two points are ones I would consider looking at if I were Custer (and had been dumb enough to let things get to this point). I would guess Kellogg died in the general area of the undesignated drainage area, as I believe it would be seen as a more direct route to the north end of the village than the one farther north. Both those places are great access points for the NAs, but not good for cavalry due to the narrowness. Crossing in column, probably no more than 2 abreast, doesn't lend itself to an effective charge. I still think the NAs probably used both to give Custer no option but moving back to LSH. Laref/C45,
I am in agreement. I would add that "snake" drainage doesn't look remotely anything to do with "man", so it is just a question of 1876 profile. The more research I do, the more I am convinced there may have been 2 or 3 defile crossing points between Fords C and D, all useful for NA west to east infiltration and all equally useless for safe east to west crossing by GAC (even without the issues of a narrow river crossing and defile to his rear in the event of a required retreat). GAC didn't half stumble upon bad ground by ascending the eastern bluffs in the first place.
WO
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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2014 20:37:03 GMT -6
An opposed river crossing must be conducted fast (get to the river, in the river, and out of the river as fast as possible), hard ( you must make the opposition back away, you must stun them) and on as wide a front as possible. Using just that standard, just where can Custer make an opposed crossing to get into the camp?
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Post by mac on May 4, 2014 23:32:04 GMT -6
I cannot name a place QC! For those who know it well...could Custer scout down around the fords without detection or would his presence be immediately noted? Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 5, 2014 3:53:52 GMT -6
Good morning everyone, here is a scan of the area from the Bonafede map and what it says about Mark Kellogg; I recall a discussion from last year, on what Kellogg was riding that day and someone said it was a horse not a mule, Fred was it you?. Ian.
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Post by mac on May 5, 2014 4:41:45 GMT -6
Ian that matches the McElfresh map. Now on that map, chip in here QC et al, there is a ford labelled Sioux Ford well to the West. Lots of people there no doubt but more suitable for a crossing? Would it come into calculations? Cheers
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Post by quincannon on May 5, 2014 5:29:09 GMT -6
Sioux Ford, I don't think so.
Scouting: Any place can be scouted without detection. I just depends upon how you go about the scouting. If you send two companies of cavalry to do the job in broad daylight, the answer is probably no. On the other hand if you have trained scouts, by that I mean highly trained, not Indians or civilian guides, real scouts, and you do it during the hours of darkness, or in favorable closed terrain, your chances of being detected diminish considerably.
During WWII Sixth U S Army had an organization called The Alamo Scouts, taking their name from Alamo Force (a code name for 6th USA activated in San Antonio). They penetrated every area that 6th Army went, and thoroughly reconned it well before 6th Army got there. These concepts had been long known here in the States, and well before going back as far as Biblical times. Why I bring up the Alamo Scouts is that they did this job with essentially the same tools Custer had at his disposal. Nothing fancy, just good men, technologically stripped to the bare basics. Why people like this were not gathered together and formed into provisional units, in a theater of war and operational environment that desperately called for this type unit is an indicator to me of a certain professional laziness that is and should be appalling to every professional soldier.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 5, 2014 6:10:40 GMT -6
I have yet another map (“yawn” Ian not another) and see if the northern attack route looks close to any of the places we are talking about; Chuck, the Alamo Scouts were only a small unit (around 140 Officers/NCOs/EMs) basically in British terms a size of a standard Infantry Company, I don’t know why the US Army never kept them operational like we did with the SAS (Disbanded in 1945 and re-activated in 1947). Ian. Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on May 5, 2014 6:51:10 GMT -6
Ian: We did and do. The Alamo Scouts were a provisional unit organized under tables of Distribution and Allowances rather than Tables of Organization and Equipment. They were disbanded in 1945, in Japan. Starting in the late 1950's we organized Long Range Reconnaissance Companies, and still have them. In the interim period between 46 and the late 50's we again organized provisional units for this role, notably in Korea. There are some things that can only be properly accessed by the human eyeball.
Don't think that map tells us anything we did not already know. It lacks sufficient detail
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