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Post by Yan Taylor on May 9, 2014 9:28:42 GMT -6
Yes, Ford B looks like a pretty large area on the maps,wouldn't surprise me if it was the largest ford out of the lot.
Ian.
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Post by welshofficer on May 9, 2014 17:02:52 GMT -6
AZ
We tend to use the alphabetical Ford numbers simply for potential river crossing/s in a designated narrow geographical area.
So "Ford A" is where Reno crossed the river, "Ford B" is at the bottom of MTC, and "Ford D" at the end of the eastern bluffs.
"Ford C" is more interesting. We specifically use it to refer to Deep Ravine but, as you say, there were a number of places between "Ford C" and "Ford "D" where there were defiles providing access to the hostiles to ascend the eastern bluffs. But all useless for an east to west advance across the river by GAC.
WO
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 9, 2014 21:53:31 GMT -6
Hi Steve, good shot of the ford, you can clearly see the tracks made by the vehicles that use the area, just where on the map would that ford be? Is it near Reno’s retreat location? Ian. Hi Ian More likely Thompson fords area. I was looking down from 3411 and between retreat crossing and ford B. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 9, 2014 22:04:05 GMT -6
Of those Steve I think the hardest to determine where the fords generally labeled C stop and the fords generally labeled D begin. My impression is that the fords were more areas than a specific spot indicating only one crossing place. Is that your impression as well or do you limit them to only one specif spot on the ground.. For instance I would think Real Bird, Thompson's and the very mouth of MTC are generally considered Ford B for military purposes. We see the same method of designation in Virginia regarding the various fords of the Rapidan and Rappahannock, places like Racoon Ford, United States Ford, Kelly Ford etc, where each of the fords consisted of multiple crossing places. I think you and I are on the same page. The Indians could cross anywhere there was ingress and egress to the river. The cavalry would look for certain attributes in a fording location. So if the bank you were on allowed you to get to the river and you picked a spot to climb on the other side that would fit my meaning for anywhere. Obviously it is not the same as everywhere when terrain features such a bluff would prevent ingress or egress. When we crossed at Reno's retreat crossing the water was above the horses belly an almost to my saddle blanket. When my horse stumbled he stuck his head and neck completely under water and I got out of the stirrups at that time. Maybe he was looking to see what caused him to stumble. My view of my horse ended at the saddle horn for a short period of time. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 9, 2014 22:18:36 GMT -6
AZ We tend to use the alphabetical Ford numbers simply for potential river crossing/s in a designated narrow geographical area. So "Ford A" is where Reno crossed the river, "Ford B" is at the bottom of MTC, and "Ford D" at the end of the eastern bluffs. "Ford C" is more interesting. We specifically use it to refer to Deep Ravine but, as you say, there were a number of places between "Ford C" and "Ford "D" where there were defiles providing access to the hostiles to ascend the eastern bluffs. But all useless for an east to west advance across the river by GAC. WO I think we disagree that the letters represent potential crossings since the are all not lettered. I think we disagree also on the D fords. Ford D 1 is near the road from the housing of the employee and its junction with the river in my opinion. It is closer to Kellog's marker. Whereas the other Ds are located further downstream and near the end of them is the current highway. I think ford A and Ford B were orginally designated on maps and C's and D's come along later and have no defining location or particular event. There are numerous other fords that have not be labeled with a letter. For example that picture I posted was between A and B and is an excellent ford. The Indians used it and I believe the Indian scouts used fords in the same general area when they were driving horses. I think if you look in Gordon Harper's book it has the fords. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by welshofficer on May 10, 2014 7:55:16 GMT -6
AZ
"We" equals the 9 pages of this topic/thread.
There are numerous other places where the hostiles can ascend the eastern bluffs, all useless to GAC in reverse.
WO
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 10, 2014 12:27:57 GMT -6
AZ "We" equals the 9 pages of this topic/thread. There are numerous other places where the hostiles can ascend the eastern bluffs, all useless to GAC in reverse. WO Every year there is a cavalry reenactment camp shortly before the Real Bird show. Gerry a member of this board and the other also attends and the year I observed the event Gerry was the MC. I had the pleasure to walk around later on with Gerry and we looked at crossing. There is definite good crossing between ford A and B. It is the one Thompson describes in his book. You don't have to believe Thompson for it is still there today and in the location he states. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 10, 2014 12:59:14 GMT -6
Just to add a disclaimer on my personal filters. I consider DC a friend and have no problem with accepting his opinion of Custer being shot earlier than on LSH it can not be excluded by any facts that I have seen presented. When I conduct investigations I don't exclude possibilities that could have an effect upon my investigations. I don't have to believe it or not just don't exclude it without facts to the contrary.
Gordie was a friend of mine also and from what I have read and corresponded with him he gave me confidence that he had spent his time researching before forming an opinion. He would often state his position and not argue it to the extremes we see so often. He believed he had a factual basis for a North to South theory and thats all you can ask of opinions. Wiebert believed the same and spent many years on the battlefield. Gordie lived in Busby for a while and had numerous visits.
If George Custer himself made it as far as the D fords or at least above them without serious engagement then it could be hard to argue against a north to south movement. If the troops were as far north as the current cemetery location the you have to move south to some degree to get to LSH.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by welshofficer on May 10, 2014 13:14:34 GMT -6
Just to add a disclaimer on my personal filters. I consider DC a friend and have no problem with accepting his opinion of Custer being shot earlier than on LSH it can not be excluded by any facts that I have seen presented. When I conduct investigations I don't exclude possibilities that could have an effect upon my investigations. I don't have to believe it or not just don't exclude it without facts to the contrary. Gordie was a friend of mine also and from what I have read and corresponded with him he gave me confidence that he had spent his time researching before forming an opinion. He would often state his position and not argue it to the extremes we see so often. He believed he had a factual basis for a North to South theory and thats all you can ask of opinions. Wiebert believed the same and spent many years on the battlefield. Gordie lived in Busby for a while and had numerous visits. If George Custer himself made it as far as the D fords or at least above them without serious engagement then it could be hard to argue against a north to south movement. If the troops were as far north as the current cemetery location the you have to move south to some degree to get to LSH. Regards AZ Ranger AZ,
As most posters on this thread believe there was a "northern tour" towards the Ford D areas, it would be hard to argue against a north to south flow in the Yates sector of some sorts. But that is not the issue with DC, because we are only discussing the Keogh sector with him. If DC won't accept the Keogh sector flowed northwards, fine. But he could at least do us all the courtesy of providing a theory (his own or borrowed) as to how the battle in the Keogh sector did not flow northwards. That's all.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on May 10, 2014 13:22:04 GMT -6
Every year there is a cavalry reenactment camp shortly before the Real Bird show. Gerry a member of this board and the other also attends and the year I observed the event Gerry was the MC. I had the pleasure to walk around later on with Gerry and we looked at crossing. There is definite good crossing between ford A and B. It is the one Thompson describes in his book. You don't have to believe Thompson for it is still there today and in the location he states. Regards AZ Ranger AZ,
That doesn't surprise me at all. All each NA warrior needed was a river crossing point and break in the bluffs to access the higher ground, and not necessarily in the same place.
WO
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