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Post by brenda56 on Jan 17, 2015 8:07:04 GMT -6
At the time of writing the note is it not possible to say Custer and co. had no idea what their shorterm actions, consequences rather, would be. Maybe as he set off towards the right of Reno his only thought could have been that `they always run. That being the case his eastern movement prior to ford b around the bluffs is understandable. His plan may have been solely to herd and not a lot to do with flanking, attacking or any other military term. Another interpretation of the note could be - `Benteen, we found a big village, come and have some fun and don't forget the sandwiches and coffee.
??
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 17, 2015 8:50:24 GMT -6
Brenda, astute and to the point. Solid thinking. I do like the coffee portion as they had been up a lot of hours.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Jan 17, 2015 8:58:13 GMT -6
It is from the Italian Beth - battaglione. Two or more companies with someone in overall command. And here I am, always thinking that word referred to a loaf of bread!!! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 17, 2015 10:06:34 GMT -6
Fred, dual meaning, how else could Benteen bring sandwiches?
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2015 10:19:04 GMT -6
It is derived from he Italian word for battle - battaglia.
Indians always run-----No they don't. When their village is attacked they attempt to form a screen and fight until their families can exit. If Custer expected the warriors to run, he had stepped though the looking glass with Alice.
There is a difference between scattering and running.
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Jan 17, 2015 18:37:05 GMT -6
I wonder that if Custer had known about the Rosebud fight whether he would have changed his "strategy"? In the Rosebud fight the NA's attacked Crook.
From Wikipedia:
The Indian force of almost 1,000 men set out from their village on June 16 in the middle of the night to seek out the soldiers on the Rosebud. They rode all night, rested their horses for a couple of hours, then continued, making contact with Crook's scouts at about 8:30 a.m., June 17.
Of course It never occurred to Crook to communicate with Terry nor did he know his exact position. One can wonder if Terry would have divided up his command had he known about Rosebud?
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2015 19:44:41 GMT -6
There was absolutely no reason to change the concept of operations following the Rosebud. Conflict at the operational level consists of a series of pushes and pulls, until one side or the other is pushed beyond their limitations.
Custer was not defeated by the overall operational concept. He was defeated because he proved to be a poor tactician.
Crook failing to communicate with Terry had no impact. Custer lost the battle all by his lonesome, when it could have been won, and should have been won.
What could Crook have told Terry anyway? I was attacked by Indians, lots of Indians. Crook was coming up from the south. Custer was coming from the south. Southwestward to the Big Horns is where the Army did not want the Indians to go. Why then was Custer fiddling around east of the village. Had he attacked anywhere from the east in which direction would the Indians most probably go - Southeastward. His actions defeated his own pupose
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 17, 2015 20:34:01 GMT -6
Shaw is correct, in that no attempt by Crook was made. If Custer had knowledge of the Rosebud battle might he have not scouted Tullock and continued feeling to his left?
Regards, Tom
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 17, 2015 21:21:49 GMT -6
No direct attempt by Crook to contact Terry was made, given the land was in the hands of the Sioux and whatever message was sent and whenever, or if, it arrived, things would be substantially different by then. Custer's guys could tell from high ground at the Crow's nest there was no major activity north in Tullock's. No smoke, and scouts would have advised how bad it was for large groups. In any case, they had a huge trail and a camp on the LBH. Terry's men saw smoke from the existing camp when they mounted the LBH with Tulloch's much closer and clearer. Custer would know that the north being down stream, Terry's guys would see no sign coming down stream in aggregate with the obvious visuals down south and make the correct conclusion.
Crook did send info to the Army in the accepted manner back east. Terry did the same thing. Later, they sent three volunteers from further south to Crook, since the tribes went recently east and previously north according to the trails.
Not much different from later wars, when all radio traffic had to go through central commands far away with minimal direct contact. Leyte Gulf, the Indianapolis, all made wonderful by this.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 18, 2015 8:35:21 GMT -6
DC
I think since we live in a timely communication causing us to believe it would have been a consideration as compared to making a progress report. On the back side of the San Francisco Peaks there is no radio or cell phone coverage. I guess a satellite phone might work if you have one but I don't expect someone to look for me until 8 PM unless I tell dispatch to do so earlier. If I found something going on then I deal with it and don't think about others until back in coverage. In some areas even with coverage back up is hours away.
Most everyone in the 1870s west lived in a non-coverage area and it was the norm to be on your own in my opinion.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 18, 2015 11:03:47 GMT -6
There was absolutely no reason to change the concept of operations following the Rosebud. Conflict at the operational level consists of a series of pushes and pulls, until one side or the other is pushed beyond their limitations. Custer was not defeated by the overall operational concept. He was defeated because he proved to be a poor tactician. Crook failing to communicate with Terry had no impact. Custer lost the battle all by his lonesome, when it could have been won, and should have been won. What could Crook have told Terry anyway? I was attacked by Indians, lots of Indians. Crook was coming up from the south. Custer was coming from the south. Southwestward to the Big Horns is where the Army did not want the Indians to go. Why then was Custer fiddling around east of the village. Had he attacked anywhere from the east in which direction would the Indians most probably go - Southeastward. His actions defeated his own pupose QC,
If you recall, my reading on my long haul flights at Christmas was John Bourke's book about his time with Crook. It is staggering how reactive Crook was to developments, waiting for GAC to make contact with him. I guess similar considerations apply to Terry. Any Crook messenger would have had to go northwards by swinging well to the east, and locating the 7th would not have been easy, but I find it "a little surprising" (Brit speak) that no effort was made and especially after the 17 June battle.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Jan 18, 2015 15:22:17 GMT -6
I find it surprising as well but had the effort been made, and Custer contacted, I don't see where it would have made a difference.
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 18, 2015 18:37:34 GMT -6
QC,
It all depends what action, if any, news of the Rosebud defeat would have made on GAC's tactical decisions....?
WO
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Post by montrose on Jan 18, 2015 20:49:32 GMT -6
ehh
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Post by montrose on Jan 18, 2015 20:51:45 GMT -6
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am trying to develop a response that does not come across as patronizing and insulting. I wrote and deleted my last 3 efforts. So let me watch my Patriots, hopefully, win their game.
I need to craft a response that addresses WOs views.
Starting points.
-Crook and Terry were in different departments. Their higher HQ was Sheridan. So any messages go up and over, as they have in military commands last 2000 years.
- So where was the HQ for the 2 departments? Sheridan was heading to Philly for a cheesesteak,...or a dog and pony show. The department and above HQ design was administrative, incapable of supporting combat operations. - If Sheridan thought there was a need for 2 departments to fight together, he would have moved forward, He and Sherman did this numerous times throughout the Indian wars.
-Radios, drones, aircraft and satellites did not exist in 1876. Applying command and communication procedures that did not exist at that time just confuse me.
US and RN Navies have a signal for my eyebrows are raised: this means last message needs to be reviewed. I am raising that flag.
Respectfully,
Will.I.Am
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