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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 9:53:04 GMT -6
... if Carr, discovering the trail and had followed it northwest it is highly likely he would have found himself anywhere from Sheridan on the south to the upper reaches of the LBH Valley to the north. Good! So it is feasible... and not unreasonable. Yeah, well, maybe you can. Me and my dingbat friends will be there in June, 2013. Sheridan and Buffalo are two places we never miss. Thursday night at the Occidental is marvelous! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2012 10:13:33 GMT -6
OK Fred I can rest easy now. A period map would have sure helped, but knowing the general direction of march one can get a fairly good idea.
Siegfried at the Met today. There goes the rest of the morning and early afternoon.
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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 11:01:00 GMT -6
A period map would have sure helped, but knowing the general direction of march one can get a fairly good idea. I have a beautiful, color copy of Terry's campaign map, I guess the Raynolds/Maynadier map. Kind of hand to read, however, and my place is in such an uproar right now, I have no place to lay it out and peruse it with a magnifying glass. I will though. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Margaret on Apr 21, 2012 13:36:23 GMT -6
No, they are not trifling. My health issues are minor, and can hardly be even considered issues......
...Plus, I am married to the absolute love of my life, and you cannot ask for anything more than that.
I'm very pleased to hear that Mr Wagner, I had been thinking otherwise. Marvellous what can be done today for people, if caught early enough....
..and that you are enjoying life to the full....a bonus !
Okay... but only if you have arrived at that conclusion yourself. And that based on logic, reason, and available information
...Captain Ball had been around for some time and was no johnny-come-lately, so I find. Going back to Ft Wallace on the Smoky Hill river....
...they also went some 13 miles following the trail until it forked.... so I have to accept he, and his advisors with him, must have had the opportunity to see enough to make those judgements accurately.
A slight doubt remains, but I put the balance in his favour...
His little sortie up the valley must have been quite a scary thing to do for all concerned, following such a large encampment. The sort of thing one sees in old Westerns.
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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 15:49:17 GMT -6
... and that you are enjoying life to the full....a bonus! Helford, my dear, let's not get carried away here! <g> I am quite fortunate, that's all. I need to start enjoying that life all over again. Unfortunately, I have not done that much biographical work on men outside of the Seventh Cavalry, but here is what I have on CPT Ball: CPT Edward Ball (aka, David Rey)—d. 22Oct1884. Commanding Officer, H/2C. An initial enlistment in 1844 would make Ball one of the oldest men on the 1876 campaign, certainly in his fifties. • From Heitman’s register: Ball, Edward. Pa. Army. Entered service under name of David Rey; pvt H and E 4 Inf 25Nov1844 to 25Nov1849; pvt corpl and 1sergt H 1 Dragoons 7May1850 to 13Aug1861; 2LT 12 Inf 14May1861; transferred to 2 Cav 20Sep1861: 1LT 5 Apr1862; r q m 24Sep1862 to 25July1865; Capt 25July1865; Maj 7 Cav 1Apr1880: retired 14Apr1884; died 22Oct1884. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Margaret on Apr 22, 2012 9:53:28 GMT -6
...a right old stager....
thank you... I wonder why the change of name... but not uncommon in those days...
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Post by Margaret on Apr 24, 2012 5:30:51 GMT -6
I believe I have found the information I had been wanting regarding this large band that joined forces with the main group, from the upper Little Bighorn.
Going back to 'Centennial Campaign', and quoting John Gray, I found the following:-
..."In his diary for July 29th, Bourke recorded the story of a Shoshone scout who had accompanied the Crows when they left Crook's camp on June 18th. The Shoshone reported that they had stumbled on a big Sioux village near the head of the LIttle Big Horn, which they had to climb the mountains to avoid. It was probably this large village that left the recent heavy trail descending the Little Big Horn that Captain Ball's reconnaissance discovered on June 28th...."
[In Bourke's ''On the Border with Crook'' he doesn't mention this but writing around the 1st August, does tell us that a group of Shoshone's and Ute's joined Crook and some of these Shoshone's had previously been injured in the Rosebud fight. Presumably he got the above tale from one of them].
I also believe Sitting Bull's camp, as from June 18-23, going a few miles southwards on the East bank of the River [as stated by Kate Bighead], would be where present Shavings Creek joins the river, about 7 miles up, and not as far as Lodge Grass as I thought earlier.
When leaving the area after the battle on the 26th, according to 'Wooden Leg' they camped at the Lodge Grass/Grey Blanket/Owl creek confluence before diverging. It seems they were gone by the 28th when Capt. Ball must have glimpsed the diverging trails on his 13 mile scout towards that area.
I also speculate it was this Owl Creek that provided the inward trail for the other band when they arrived in the LBH valley via the Wolf Mountains.
I feel reasonably satisfied with that...
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Post by fred on Apr 24, 2012 6:07:35 GMT -6
Helford,
Knowing you as I do, I would accept your analysis without question. Very nicely done! That is a post that needs to be kept.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Margaret on Apr 24, 2012 15:55:00 GMT -6
..oh that's very nice - thank you Fred.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 18, 2016 12:04:26 GMT -6
DucemusCaptain E. W. Smith of the 18th Infantry was called to testify to the Reno Court of Inquiry. What has happened to his testiomony. It is not included to the record of the hearings? He was one of 26 intended to offer testimony. The reports entered as items of evidence were offered to be read to Court, at the end of testimony, before Reno took an oath.
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Post by mrobvious on Jul 27, 2017 15:41:04 GMT -6
Chance is relatively similar to luck. A trained officer will split forces and attack from all sides. Here's a question that has always bothered me...
The 7th Calvary had around 850 men. 100 or so on vacation. I think we all agree on 750 per historical records.
The 7th Calvary also had:
30+ scouts.
70+/- Teamsters running the pack train.
Reno and Benteen both stated they had around 120 men.
Where were the other guys?
I would guess they were with Reno since a normal military action would call for an assault with flanking activity.
Just saying...
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Post by edavids on Jul 27, 2017 21:04:58 GMT -6
Chance is relatively similar to luck. A trained officer will split forces and attack from all sides. Here's a question that has always bothered me... The 7th Calvary had around 850 men. 100 or so on vacation. I think we all agree on 750 per historical records. The 7th Calvary also had: 30+ scouts. 70+/- Teamsters running the pack train. Reno and Benteen both stated they had around 120 men. Where were the other guys? I would guess they were with Reno since a normal military action would call for an assault with flanking activity. Just saying... Only 566 enlisted men and 31 officers were at LBH. There were about 50 more civilians/NAs serving as scouts, guides, interpreters, teamsters for a total force of about 647. The rest of the 7th were assigned to other duties and perhaps 100-150 or so were left at the Powder River Depot. One of our experts please feel free to correct me if my numbers are off. Welcome btw. Best, David
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Post by wild on Jul 28, 2017 3:11:51 GMT -6
Being a regiment as opposed to a battalion it probably had a long admin tail.Just guessing. More familiar with Brit set up where a regiment is the admin formation and the battalions of that regiment being the fighting units. Cheers
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Post by noggy on Jul 28, 2017 4:57:26 GMT -6
Being a regiment as opposed to a battalion it probably had a long admin tail.Just guessing. More familiar with Brit set up where a regiment is the admin formation and the battalions of that regiment being the fighting units. Cheers We don`t have enough people to organize an entire regiment, so we only work at platoon level! (Almost true)
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Post by fred on Jul 28, 2017 7:44:33 GMT -6
Chance is relatively similar to luck. A trained officer will split forces and attack from all sides. Here's a question that has always bothered me... The 7th Calvary had around 850 men. ... Your first point is quite valid. Too many people-- incorrectly-- think otherwise. It just takes more control, that's all. Your numbers, however, are completely wrong. On May 17, 1876, troop strength-- assigned-- at Fort Lincoln, was 48 officers, 793 enlisted personnel. Leaving Fort Lincoln-- and taking DS, TDY, and other situations in consideration-- the 7th Cavalry departed with 32 officers and 706 enlisted personnel. After dropping off men at the PRD, there were 31 officers and 576 enlisted men at the battle, 607 uniformed personnel, total. They were augmented by 9 civilians and QM personnel; 24 Ree scouts; 4 Dakota scouts; 6 Crow scouts; and 5 civilian packers. A total of 655 men at the battleground. At the battle itself, Custer's 5 companies began with 225 officers, men, scouts, and civilians, but with messengers and stragglers having left the command, the two battalions and HQ wound up with 210, total. Reno began with 170 men, total: troops, civilians, scouts. By the time he entered the battle, he was down to 136 troops (officers and EM) plus 17 scouts and civilians: 153, total. At separation, Benteen started with 116 officers and men and 1 scout. By the time he reached Reno Hill, he had lost the scout, but gained 1 enlisted man (Martini). So when Benteen and companies reached the hilltop, there were still 117 soldiers. The packs consisted of 143 officers, EM, scouts, and civilians. They lost the scout, but gained Kanipe, so by the time the entire pack train reached Reno Hill, its strength remained at 143. If you are so inclined, the May and June company and regimental returns will give you everything you need. If you do not feel like doing all the "math," you can find this data in the charts in Appendix A of the book, Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Catchy title, don't you think? Best wishes, Fred.
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