|
Post by fred on Apr 20, 2012 7:05:24 GMT -6
I'm so sorry for getting Crook and Terry mixed up in my final paragraph. ... I do apologise. No need to, kiddo; I suspected as much. Absolutely not... not me anyway. This happens to be one of my real bug-a-boos with this whole thing. I believe Boyer and the Indian scouts-- along with Benteen and maybe some others-- knew exactly what they were reading. Custer chose to ignore them. So in that regard, I completely agree with you. I also believe, however, CPT Ball a well-experienced soldier and tracker and certainly did not misread the signs he saw going up the LBH valley. Did he? I don't recall him saying anything about another village, only about substantial tracks heading north. Or is senility setting in? At this point, in this location, I would agree with you. This is, however, the mistake the officers made as they moved up the Rosebud... they only read the camps, not the newer, fresher, overlying trails. I still do not see where Ball was incorrect. The whole issue is simple: large, separate trails coming down the LBH valley, not associated with any of the trails or villages that reached the confluence of Reno Creek and the Little Big Horn. Vis a northward trek down the LBH valley... <g> Carr was shipped by train to Denver, then Cheyenne Wells and moved into northern Wyoming. He was much farther south than Crook. I stand corrected... though with two disclaimers: (1) my books and maps are packed, and (2) my main file where I have all these movements and places stored was corrupted with I installed the newer version of MS Office for Macs in my nine-year old Mac PowerBook G4 laptop. My only hope if to save all my files on my "Firelite," then reinstall the older Word version... then sell my computer!!! Wanna buy a techie's dream? She's old, but a beauty...!? I would agree. Always nice to discuss this with you, Helford. I enjoy your knowledge and the equanimity of an intelligent woman. No baggage; no issues; no ego. Great stuff. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2012 8:36:15 GMT -6
Fred: This Cheyenne Wells you mention, where is it? There is a very small town here in Colorado called Cheyenne Wells east of me on U S 40 out toward the Kansas border, but from your description don't think that would be it. Going from Denver to Wyoming via the present Cheyenne Wells would be like going from NYC to DC via Chicago. Are you speaking of the present city of Cheyenne?
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 20, 2012 11:36:17 GMT -6
Fred: This Cheyenne Wells you mention, where is it?... Going from Denver to Wyoming via the present Cheyenne Wells would be like going from NYC to DC via Chicago. Are you speaking of the present city of Cheyenne? Man, you are a tough task master!! Okay, Queenie... for you and Helford... maybe you both can correct me if I have gotten things wrong. I wrote the stuff below-- heavily redacted-- many years ago with the intention of putting it in a historical novel about the battle and its attendant events. It is rough and I do not know where I got the data from, though some how I think it may be drawn from Jim Wllert's Little Big Horn Diary. (See how good that book it...?) You may have to figure out dates or some such, but everything in here is drawn very accurately from other sources; nothing is made up by me (unless there is dialogue, but I think I got it all out...). Maybe you know the landmarks and can figure out precisely where all this is. Again, all my stuff is packed and will be for at least another month. "The regiment moved to Fort Hays from Fort Riley.
"By evening of June 5th, two special trains of the Kansas Pacific Railroad were rolling west toward Denver, loaded with four companies of the Fifth United States Cavalry Regiment. From there they would head to Cheyenne where they would join four more companies of the regiment. Except for a fire near Cheyenne Wells that had trapped sixteen of the regiment’s horses in a boxcar, the days had gone by uneventfully. While there was no timber to speak of at this camp, the land was rich in grass and Carr camped his troopers alongside a dirt trail, just recently passed over by the daily stage. Telegraph poles lined the road.
"While camped near Cheyenne, Carr picked up two more of his companies—now totaling six, plus the scout, Buffalo Bill Cody—and was due to pick up two more companies at the Chugwater, the following day.
"By evening, Gene Carr and his Fifth Cavalry were at Fort Laramie. Carr had received a dispatch while camped on the Chugwater that General Sheridan would be traveling to the Red Cloud Agency and the two officers met up at Laramie. Carr agreed to provide Sheridan with an escort and would wait at Laramie until the general had been able to assess the situation and give the Fifth further orders.
"June 22… by six AM, Carr and his Fifth Cavalry were on the march, crossing the new iron bridge that spanned the North Platte. They reached Cottonwood Creek, then headed over a divide into a small valley. After a fairly easy march of almost twenty-five miles, Carr put his command into bivouac on the south fork of Rawhide Creek, just two miles from the Rawhide Stage Station….
"Carr received instructions from Sheridan: '… When your command reaches the crossing of the Powder River trail by the Custer City road, halt there, or at some convenient place covering the trail, until further information of the Indian affairs is received from Gens. Crook or Terry, unless you acquire such reliable information as would warrant you in going on to carry out the written instructions which I gave you at Fort Laramie….'
“ 'At least a week, General,' Cody said. 'These ashes are a week to ten days old.' Carr stood there looking at the ruins. Even the rains did not obliterate all the tracks around, leading to, and away from the burnt-out remains of the Rawhide Stage Station. Too many Indians… That seemed to be the problem from the very beginning. Not a single sighting, yet tracks upon tracks, hundreds upon hundreds of warriors, destruction everywhere those tracks were seen. And they were getting fresher. Each day brought the Fifth a little closer.
"The Fifth Cavalry was on the move by six AM. At noon, Carr ordered the troops into a bivouac along Indian Creek.
"Carr sent Major Stanton and forty men from Company C, and 'Little Bat' Garnier, heading north-northeast, close to due north. They wanted to get into the valley of the Cheyenne. If they were heading west, that would be their route.
"They headed north, down a widening valley, “Little Bat” Garnier well in front. At each ridge, he would halt, dismount, check the countryside ahead, and signal the troops forward. As they arrived he would light out again, repeating the same formula. The longer they moved, the deeper into Indian country they found themselves, and the more worrisome every rise of ground became.
"Suddenly—as the afternoon wore on—“Little Bat” reined in and Lieutenant King galloped forward as Stanton and Keyes held the rest of the men back. Garnier found a lot of tracks coming from the east, from the direction of the agencies. King motioned the column forward and they rode on, still northward, down the valley. Now they began seeing additional trails entering the main one, all heading in the direction of the Cheyenne Valley, no more than four to five days old. They galloped on.
"Half an hour later, Garnier reined in again and the column caught up. More tracks, this time crossing over the main trail and heading northwest into the low hills: a shortcut to the Big Horn Mountains. At nine PM “Little Bat” and King mounted a small rise. They halted about six miles from the Cheyenne River.
"They could see small fires in the distance, several of them north and west, high and far off in the hills."All corrections, comments, and ideas welcomed. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2012 11:57:58 GMT -6
Fred: OK same Cheyenne Wells. As one goes west from Fort Hays, today's Hays Kansas, home of the best breakfast dive between here and NYC the route would be in the same general direction taken by US Route 40 until it intersects with Interstate 70 at Limon. That route would take you past Fort Wallace, today's Wallace, Kansas, Wescan, enter Colorado, Arapahoe, Cheyenne Wells, First View, Kit Carson, Wild Horse, Aroya, Hugo, meet I70 and on to Denver. Most of that track is still there today. So it is the same one. Now these places I mentioned are, in the main no larger than the dot depicted on the map, although there is a gas station in Cheyenne Wells that has one of those old fashioned soda coolers, that men or a certain age remember from the wild and wooley halcion days of youth.
Invest in a set of those Rand McNally U S Road Guide Series. Eleven different maps in 1:1200 000 scale. I take them on all of my adventures. The ones of most interest to you would be Number 6 Southwest (Southern Rockies -Canyon Country) and Number 2 North Central (Great Plains - Indian Country). They are supurb and have many of the sites marked on them like old fort locations and the like. Barnes and Noble has them as do most other good bookstores. About $10 each
PS: Even the location of the Hog Ranch outside Fort Fetterman is shown. Perhaps not your cup of tea but as Bawdy Houses go, it was a corker.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 20, 2012 12:02:10 GMT -6
Ah-h, Chuck, you old rake, you!!!
Now, tell me, does that all fit-- the tracks Carr's command would have seen-- into a scenario of Indians entering the upper LBH valley, then proceeding down same? Would that be a logical approach route from that area?
You see, Helford... we are of the same mettle... I do not care if I have made a mistake... I just want to know the truth, just like you.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2012 12:15:44 GMT -6
Rogue, I am to damned old to be a rake, but I fancy there was a day, if I remember correctly. However there is nothing certain about that either. Now where did I put my car keys, and did I remember to take my heart pills this morning? Nothing certain in this life, and my Hoveround is stuck in neutral. Time to press the Life Alert button.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2012 13:31:49 GMT -6
Fred: With my trusty Rand McNally, mentioned above, the route you describe from Cheyenne to Chugwater (Don't ever eat there, I still have indigestion) over to Fort Laramie and up over Rawhide Creek if continued would bisect the direct route from the agencies at Fort Robinson and Pine Ridge to the LBH Valley. The discription played out near the junction of the South Dakota, Wyoming, and Nebraska borders, and not to very far from the Warbonnet Creek skirmish. Without having a period map anything further would be just speculation on my part.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 20, 2012 13:44:56 GMT -6
But the route would have led into the upper LBH valley, right, Chuck?
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Margaret on Apr 20, 2012 18:23:32 GMT -6
Did he? I don't recall him saying anything about another village, only about substantial tracks heading north. Or is senility setting in?...No need for you to worry about senility... some of us likely get there long before you... what I meant was, Ball must have seen the remains of a very large village on the East bank of the river, where Bighead said they had camped for 5 nights. He couldn't have missed that. My feelings are as before that he read it as signs of an entirely separate band that had arrived to join the other. I can see what you are trying to prove with Carr's 5th cavalry noting all those trails along the South Cheyenne river valley. That's a long way off and it was the favoured route but I don't see that it would necessarily lead them to the upper Little Big Horn river, although I suppose they would have needed the freshest of grasses for their ponies and may have opted for an alternate route by the time they arrived in the Tongue River area..... so it's possible and I can't rule it out. Carr was shipped by train to Denver, then Cheyenne Wells and moved into northern Wyoming. He was much farther south than Crook.Captain Charles King of the 5th Cavalry under Wesley Merritt did at least confirm what I wrote. As at July 4th 1876:- ''General Carr, with companies 'B', 'G' and 'M' marched eastwards towards the Black Hills''........as you have found in your own quote in the reply above to Mr Quincannon, which I found quite interesting by the way as it brought back a lot of memories, as I have travelled most of that from Kansas, through Wallace, Denver, Cheyenne and the Chugwater to the Black Hills.... even went down into Goshen Hole along the way, I expect someone here will know where that is... perhaps I should've stayed there... Incidentally, I have noted on another thread some discussion regarding the note passed to Martini from Cooke - the famous one. Much is being made of the difference between "be quick" and "come quick". I understand that but all I would add is that we don't know what Custer actually said do we? it was what Cooke wrote, hurriedly and on the back of a probably agitated horse. 'on' 'be' and 'ps' would be the simplest and quickest he could write....For all we know Custer could have uttered profanities with Cooke being as polite and as speedy as he could rather than quoting verbatim what Custer said.... Perhaps too much is being made of it....? thank you for your kind words earlier - I sometimes have a guilt complex writing to you and try to avoid calling you out, too often...
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 20, 2012 18:44:50 GMT -6
Fred: Those landmarks you gave me are 200 plus miles southeast of Sheridan. I would say no if your talking about Carr's route. Looks like he was cutting across the likely route. What I would also say though is that anyone going from the aforementioned agencies must pass that way lest they wish to travel around Robin Hood's barn.
Helford: Not to belabor the point. It does not matter one whit what Custer said. It matters only what Cooke wrote and what Benteen received. When an adjutant sends an order, even a suggestion, it is in the name, and with the autority of the commander, in the same way as if the commander was whispering sweet nothings in your ear. Therefore when and adjutant puts something down on paper it better darn well express the will and intent of the guy he is writing for. No matter which way yoiu slice it that note was for an order - inadequate.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 6:54:13 GMT -6
One response per post at a time... (it's that senility issue again, Helford)... you guys keep beating around my bush like I am going to strike...
Simple question... forget Carr's column... are the routes Carr discovered consistent with a united or semi-united entry into the upper reaches of the LBH valley? Forget specific entry points like Shavings Creek or Long Otter Creek... just a general entry into the upper end. Would these trails lead to a reasonable entry? You know... New York to Washington, D. C., not via Chicago.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 7:07:59 GMT -6
... what I meant was, Ball must have seen the remains of a very large village on the East bank of the river, where Bighead said they had camped for 5 nights. He couldn't have missed that. My feelings are as before that he read it as signs of an entirely separate band that had arrived to join the other. That is possible, Helford, but I would still give Ball the benefit of doubt here, especially since the trail led to this village from Reno Creek. My only point here is, would these trails indicate a feasible route into the upper end of the LBH valley? This is what I really like about you... a willingness to understand. No issue here... but remember, this is after the battle. Fascinating country, isn't it? Entirely warranted. No need to have any such complex. You have proven to me and everyone else your own knowledge and you needn't take a back seat to anyone. I welcome it if you can "prove" me wrong in anything, for that would be another truth we would have arrived at. And you see, Helford, the discussion gives credit to us all because we would have all contributed to the findings. In my opinion, too many people do not see it that way and are only interested in swinging around their own ideas, their own theories, their own prejudices and preconceptions. Some day I will publish or discuss my views of the valley fight. They will set everyone and everything on end, from its duration, to its location, to the horses, to the distances, to the number of skirmish lines and where they were.... I'll be drummed out of the "Custer/LBH" ranks! Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Apr 21, 2012 7:52:07 GMT -6
Fred: What I would say is that if Carr, discovering the trail and had followed it northwest it is highly likely he would have found himself anywhere from Sheridan on the south to the upper reaches of the LBH Valley to the north.
Had he turned about the place I lost you geographicly in your narrative he would have cut across the northeast corner of Wyoming on an axis approximately from the point where the corners of Nebraska and South Dakota meet the eastern border of Wyoming. Assuming that the north-south eastern border of Wyoming is your base line (zero) the trail would have been on an azmuth of approximately 310 degrees cutting west of Gillette and east of Buffalo then further on passing Sheridan about 30 miles to the east and then having a reasonable expectation of entering the Valley of the LBH just north of the Montana border. It would be a heck of a lot easier to show you than to tell you.
|
|
|
Post by Margaret on Apr 21, 2012 8:06:45 GMT -6
No need to have any such complex
...thank you, I appreciate that and I was thinking more along the lines of your health and time constraints - you have other projects, my views are trifling in comparison.
Incidentally, I have thought for some time now about this, and on reflection I must now give Capt Ball credit. I am satisfied that he was right and did not confuse the trails. Unless I find something else to reignite the doubt, I am happy to leave it there. This band must have arrived quite late, about the 23rd or 24th, about the same time the main group was moving on down the valley.
..propitious for Sitting Bull...
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 9:40:05 GMT -6
...thank you, I appreciate that and I was thinking more along the lines of your health and time constraints - you have other projects, my views are trifling in comparison. No, they are not trifling. My health issues are minor, and can hardly be even considered issues. I had prostate cancer diagnosed last July, then underwent robotic surgery to have it removed, so that is no longer an issue. PSA has been zero. As far as now, I have two herniated disks brought about by arthritis and I see a neuro-surgeon on Tuesday. Whatever he decides he must do should solve that problem, as well. I walk a lot, do core exercises when I can (which has not been of late because of the disk problem); have no cholesterol or blood pressure problems (thank you, medication), and feel marvelous otherwise. Plus, I am married to the absolute love of my life, and you cannot ask for anything more than that. Fortunately, as well, I have been blessed with a passion and people like you contribute to that. That elevates you and your views to prime importance in my life. Why? Because regardless of the subject or the interest I admire and respect everyone with a passion... moreso if they mirror mine. Okay... but only if you have arrived at that conclusion yourself. And that based on logic, reason, and available information. I agree totally. I do not believe there is any question about it. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|