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Post by markland on Oct 28, 2008 2:30:31 GMT -6
My copy arrived today. Looks like I'll have to suspend the Battle of Monocacy and the search for the Tang survivors, and instead spend the weekend on the eastern slopes of the Bighorns ( not the Rockies...I don't care what they say). Billy's terrific (and useful) website is listed in the bibliography, so the book can't be all bad, right? cefil CEFIL, good catch as I had totally missed that while looking through my copy which arrived last Thursday also. The only quibble I have so far is the assertion that the Fetterman battle deaths were 8% of total regular Army casualties against the Indians when my research definitely shows them to have been 6.76% (1,168 identified deaths caused by Indians-so far-for the period 1847-1890.) Be good, Billy
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Post by cefil on Oct 28, 2008 7:53:01 GMT -6
I didn't get much time to read this past weekend, so I'm not very far into the book, but I've already found a few quibbles of my own...
The author takes a decidedly Native-centric (or, more specifically, Cheyenne-centric) point of view and this seems to color his presentation of facts. He certainly seems to play up the misdeeds of the whites with some rather pejorative descriptions while seeming to (oddly, in some cases) minimize similar actions by the Indians. Thus he gives us "the so-called U.S. Dakota Conflict of 1862." Why "so-called"? Is that supposed to make it seem, somehow, less bloody?
Monnett also seems to have some troubles with geography. After describing the native residents of Minnesota, he goes on to say: "Close by, across the Missouri River, lived the Nakota or Ihanktum peoples...two groups whose names were anglicized as Yankton and Yanktoni." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Yankton and Yanktonai (as it is more commonly spelled) live primarily east of the Missouri, in what is now eastern South Dakota (OAP)? A couple of pages later, he describes the mass execution in Mankato, which he says is "the site of Fort Snelling." No, it isn't.
Then there are what may be simple typos, but should have been caught in the editing/proofing process. Acton, Minnesota, is listed as "Action" (perhaps the result of an overly enthusiastic automated spell-checker). The home of the Crows is called Abraroka.
These are certainly small quibbles...But occurring as they do all within the first few pages of chapter 1, they have my reading experience with this book off to a bit of a shaky start. I'll stick with it, though, and hope that these are just anomalies and quickly become merely dim memories...
cefil
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Post by friendofhistory on Oct 28, 2008 14:03:44 GMT -6
Thanks for finding typos and errors, folks. "Action" Minnesota is a typo. It should be Acton. Fort Ridgley is correct not Fort Snelling near St. Paul. That one is my error. The State of Minnesota is not my forte. True the Nakota bands originated far to the east (even in Wisconsin) and were eventually pushed west even across the Missouri but lived for quite awhile west of the Mississippi. "Absoroka" as in the the Absoroka Mountains is correct. Margatet Carrington had it spelled wrong with "Absaraka" and it has stuck It fooled me too and I had to change the spelling at the last minute. I suppose I am a bit biased toward the Indians--I teach Native American history and work closely with the Northern Cheyenne tribe but Indian atrocities are accounted for in chapter 4 especially. I used the term "so called" in reference to the Dakota War not to make it seem less bloody but because it is also called by other names like the Minnesota Sioux Uprising, etc. My 8% casualty figure, Billy is from the AGO's office and is for post 1960 so when you include the years from 1847 your 6.76 figure is pretty accurate. Of course if we go back to Fallen Timbers in the Washington and Adams time the percentage is even less. Thank you again, Billy for your wonderful website. I hope it was okay that I called you "William" in my book. It is a great service. I certainly welcome anyone's questions. If you want to contact me by e-mail my address is monnett@mscd.edu. Everyone keep up your interest in the Indian Wars, please. We are a dying breed---mostly old guys like I am rapidly becoming. The average at OIW last month was about 95! We need fresh young blood. Thanks to all of you, John Monnett
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Post by cefil on Oct 28, 2008 16:54:32 GMT -6
Hello Dr. Monnett:
Thanks so much for your gracious reply. One of the real joys of the Internet age is being able to conduct cyber-dialogs with real live authors. I've been in the book trade a long time, and this is one of my favorite new developments. I truly admire (with, I must confess, some healthy jealousy thrown in) what you've accomplished, and I look forward to finishing your book.
Thanks for the explanation about "so-called"...the misinterpretation was on my part.
My quibble wasn't with Absaraka vs. Absaroka, but rather with the typo that produced Abraraka (with the third letter as an "R" instead of an "S") on the top of page 13. Because it is italicized, and in the top line on the page, it really stands out. (I know, this is really nit-picking!)
As to your Minnesota geography, I'm afraid I still need to quibble. Mankato wasn't the site of Fort Ridgely, either. That fort was 40 miles or more upriver from Mankato, northwest of New Ulm. The only thing near Mankato was Camp Lincoln, a temporary stockade to which the condemned Dakotas were taken.
At any rate, thanks again for your response...and best wishes for the success of this book!
cefil
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Post by friendofhistory on Oct 28, 2008 17:48:50 GMT -6
Thanks cefil. Since I've never been to Mankato or Ft. Ridgely, I guess they just look close together to me on Map Quest. Also I'm a horrible proof reader in finding typos that even the copy editor missed. Oh well, I haven't read many books and written none that didn't have a couple of typos someplace. I found another one today. Enjoy, John
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Post by markland on Oct 29, 2008 5:18:10 GMT -6
<snip> My 8% casualty figure, Billy is from the AGO's office and is for post 1960 so when you include the years from 1847 your 6.76 figure is pretty accurate. Of course if we go back to Fallen Timbers in the Washington and Adams time the percentage is even less. Thank you again, Billy for your wonderful website. I hope it was okay that I called you "William" in my book. It is a great service. I certainly welcome anyone's questions. If you want to contact me by e-mail my address is monnett@mscd.edu. Everyone keep up your interest in the Indian Wars, please. We are a dying breed---mostly old guys like I am rapidly becoming. The average at OIW last month was about 95! We need fresh young blood. Thanks to all of you, John Monnett John, no problem about the "William" although I haven't seen it in the book but haven't looked carefully for it. Regarding the percentage figure, if you are stating since 1866 to jive with the Chronological List, revise your manuscript before the next edition to clarify the following, "The Fetterman casualties totaled 8 percent of the army's killed-in-action during a half-century of Indian warfare in the trans-Mississippi West." I'm glad to know you were able to put the transcriptions to good use. I have been tempted to purchase the Commission film and recopy the documents in 8.5x11 to be able to scan and post them to the web to work with the transcripts. It is either that or buy a scanner capable of doing 11x17. Of course, that is also the status of the project to take all my .rtf versions of the separate documents and put them into a book form. All of the above are held in abeyance whilst I continue work on the project from Hell (as of 10 minutes ago, the number of dead regular army personnel in the West from 1848-1890 stood at about 10,522.) One quibble and a question about Connor. First, I respectfully disagree with your statement that "...Connor's California column had massacred a Northwest Shoshoni village on the Bear River in Idaho, inflicting more casualties than Chivington had at Sand Creek." Whatever the reasons, the band as a whole had been at war, unlike poor Black Kettle's band at Washita. To me, that makes the village a military target. Fortifying the village as Bear Hunter also contributed to the death total. If it had been a "massacre" there would not have been 160 women and children captured 1. The question concerns your statement on p. 9 that "...when the Indians later learned of Connor's order to subordinates...to kill all male Indians over the age of twelve, it only strengthened their resolve to resist." Are you speaking of the Indians learning of the order after the Connor Powder River campaign strengthening their resolve to resist in the future or learning about it prior to or during the campaign causing greater resistance to the other two columns of Connor's forces? Just an aside regarding Black Bear's Arapahoes being camped with peaceful intent. I am sure that at the time they were camped they were peaceful but, prior to their arrival in the Ranchester area, were they participating in the raids along the Great Platte Road? Thanks for taking time to visit and explain, it makes a difference to all of us old (and there are also a few young'uns here) Indian Wars buffs. Be good, Billy P.S. If you want a working copy of the project from Hell, drop me a line. 1 Michno, Gregory, Encyclopedia of Indian Wars p. 110.
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Post by conz on Oct 31, 2008 6:51:17 GMT -6
Billy,
According to Kershaw, who just finished studies at the Army's staff college, he says the Army's "official" number of KIA due to the Trans-Mississippi Indian Wars is 1,128.
Just for comparison...
Clair
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Post by friendofhistory on Oct 31, 2008 13:17:34 GMT -6
Thanks, Billy. I would think the Arapaho's will to resist was after Connor's order. I don't see how they could have gotten wind of it before. Thanks again for your website. Maybe someday you can get the Senate and Congressional reports as well. Theere's also the post returns available in the NA.
John
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