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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 3, 2023 6:00:42 GMT -6
Cheers! I have Grahams book - actually have to read it (instead of just the RCOI PDFs)
What I still absolutely hate is Camp - he constantly refers to a map, lots of maps - that I can never find! Even the one we shared is not "the one".
I did find his huge map(s) of all the markers, a couple blue print surveys he apparently used for interviews, but doesn't seem to be enough.
And I see what you are saying about 8 and the pencil line - makes some sense!
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 7:49:34 GMT -6
Making sense of it appeals to a few and produces the wonderful tun of output we have. No one is ever going to get at everything because lots, and lots, and lots, of it...... is in private collections. For example - Arthur C. "Art" Unger was born in Brooklyn, NY and currently resides in Wilmington, NC with his wife Grace. He graduated from Brooklyn College, with a BS in Accounting. During his business career he has worked for American Airlines, Butler Aviation International, ABC Air Freight, and lastly owned and managed, for 35 years, a Financial Services Conglomerate (which provided private accounting, tax, financial consulting, commercial collection agency, turn-around management and business liquidation services). He is currently retired from business and devotes his time to writing. He was one of the foremost private collectors of Custerianna. His collection has included a vast library, with many rare first editions, artifacts, autographs, ephemera, including original diaries, journals and letters, memorabilia and photographs, many of which were believed to be unpublished. His fascination with George Armstrong Custer and the Battle of the Little Big Horn began with a book report he prepared in the fourth grade. He has since spent over fifty years trying to unravel the mystery which shrouds the events that occurred on June 25, 1876. linkDaniel Hurley's review of Art Unger's ABC..... 5.0 out of 5 stars Hard Hitting Account of the LBH: Reno and Benteen Skinned Reviewed in the United States on January 3, 2005 Verified Purchase This is a blunt straightforward account of the Little Big Horn with no holds bared. It reminds me a great deal of Graham's great work the "Custer Myth" which provided a ton or resource material from all sides of view, Indian, scout and military participants. But Unger uses more recently discovered material such as the famous Maguire (Gibbon's engineer) map that apparently was altered many times at the time of the Reno trial, new documents written by Benteen only discovered in the 1950's and many accounts of participants both Indian and military to show what happened on the day that a 1/3 of the 7th cavalry met their death. Utilizing Walter Camps extensive references, comments and map by Philo Clark the great Indian interpreter, the Reno trial transcripts, and various Indian testimonies, Unger makes one of the strongest cases that Reno and Benteen failed Custer and left his battalion to fight the Indians alone. Includes several new perspectives and questions such as Daniel Kanipe, the next to last messenger or deserter? Was Reno drunk during the battle? Did General Merritt allow the Reno trial to be a whitewash? Why did the pack train commander not know of Kanipe's mission? Why did companies C and I wait on the ridges behind Custer's attacking column? Were they holding for Benteen who was given the last message? Unger makers a strong case that Custer did actually attack at Medicine Trail Coulee and that it was not a feint or just a change of mind to utilize a ford further down. Unger does an impressive chronology indicating where all Custer's units were at any one time and although suggesting that Custer was on the attack when he moved north as Fox suggests, he disagrees with Fox by stating that Custer was under great pressure from the start particularly when Reno abandoned the field. Unger even speculates on whom the Officer was that Indians say was shot at Medicine Trail Coulee's ford and he provides insight into what happened to several missing Officers' bodies. Unger gives you the whole campaign perspective including Crooks abandonment of the campaign and failure to notify his superiors timely, Sheridan's failure to notify the columns of numbers of Indians leaving the reservations timely, Reno's failure to hold his position or move to Custer after Benteen's arrival, Benteen's failure go to follow Custer's orders and his deference to Reno for convenience, Reno and Benteen's claim on not hearing Custer's firing and on. No one involved with the debacle is left out that may have had a contributing part. Unger even covers the details of cavalry organization, unit size, missing officers and who the survivors were and he speculates why and how they were not with Custer. The chapters on each subject are short, very direct and loaded with evidence and testimony. The book also has a large number of photocopied exhibits from a variety of sources. My only question is that Unger credits Reno's battalion with firing a lot of ammunition but some eyewitnesses indicated that Reno's battalion took few shells when the packs arrived. Also, the Nathan Short story of the escaping trooper has not had much recent support. The only negative is that I wish I could have read the maps a bit better as they are reprinted with no additional detail and its hard to find some of the lettering that references the fords This book is a delight to read, full of information and points of view (even challenges Fox and Scotts' archeology digs). Any LBH historian will enjoy this book since all the primary participants are highlighted and detailed probably better than any other LBH book. 34 people found this helpful Study and discussion of this battle is blessed with quite remarkable, nee amazing people and long may it remain so. There's always an exception but that's life
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 3, 2023 8:54:10 GMT -6
You need to get into understanding the transcripts which are anything but reliable and many were simply the press reports published daily, cut and pasted into the file. There were problems with the stenography and stenographers.... like, they couldn't keep up and weren't there, Read W.A. Graham's forewards and comments in the various books, particularly the Chicago Inquiry one he edited and published in the 1950's. The records were a shambles of deteriorating pages and inserts and it is believed as much as 50% of it....... was missing. Seriously. It was what it was and is, and not the complete and absolute rescord of what went on. There are a number of works on the transcripts and some really amazing information but it is not the whole ball of wax and never was. It was about discrediting Whittaker's book and his timing study of the battle - the first one done. The Inquiry was not about what happened to Custer but rather removing blame from Reno, and didn't that go incredibly well. The truth always outs. The battle was certainly Custer's fault but he had no choice. The defeat was nothing to do with him. I'm re-reading Wagner at the moment and it has cheered me up enormously. The wizard of was......... It was the Reno Court of Inquiry and it would look into Reno's behavior and did it rise to a finding of fact regarding punishable offenses.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 3, 2023 8:58:06 GMT -6
I was just wondering if Martini's key is for a Yale lock? That's where Freeman"s Journal in kept and a part including the map is online. I often wonder about thise routes of march and his number '7'. Something far more profound is why there are no matkers in the valley for the Sioux who were killed or died there? The valley is private property owned by the Crow. Most markers are on Federally owned property. I doubt that the Sioux left bodies where they fell as compared to the Custer Battlefield.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 3, 2023 9:00:19 GMT -6
Cheers! I have Grahams book - actually have to read it (instead of just the RCOI PDFs) What I still absolutely hate is Camp - he constantly refers to a map, lots of maps - that I can never find! Even the one we shared is not "the one". I did find his huge map(s) of all the markers, a couple blue print surveys he apparently used for interviews, but doesn't seem to be enough. And I see what you are saying about 8 and the pencil line - makes some sense! Michael Donahue's Drawing Battle Lines is full of maps including Camp's.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 3, 2023 11:00:47 GMT -6
Cheers - thanks!!
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 15:51:29 GMT -6
I understand that Cheyenne death sites were marked by cairns such as that for Lame White Man which was shown to John Stands in Timber. A photograph locating that site is posted on the Fridnds website.
The Sioux left their drad in lodges in the valley camp and near Ford A, I would expect that their locations were handed down the generations as with the Cheyenne. The site of Sitting Bull's lodge was known and certainly to Humphries Miller so that might be an area of interest. I believe that a sculpture or engraved metal was found long after the battle.
Of course it is Crow land but i'm sure they get along well now with the Hunkpapa and Minnieconjou. Wasn't Bigfoot a Minnieconjou? I found a map of their camp layout in amongst the stuff in Vestal's collection online at OU. There were four Minnieconjou circles in a line along the river.
Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 16:01:22 GMT -6
You need to get into understanding the transcripts which are anything but reliable and many were simply the press reports published daily, cut and pasted into the file. There were problems with the stenography and stenographers.... like, they couldn't keep up and weren't there, Read W.A. Graham's forewards and comments in the various books, particularly the Chicago Inquiry one he edited and published in the 1950's. The records were a shambles of deteriorating pages and inserts and it is believed as much as 50% of it....... was missing. Seriously. It was what it was and is, and not the complete and absolute rescord of what went on. There are a number of works on the transcripts and some really amazing information but it is not the whole ball of wax and never was. It was about discrediting Whittaker's book and his timing study of the battle - the first one done. The Inquiry was not about what happened to Custer but rather removing blame from Reno, and didn't that go incredibly well. The truth always outs. The battle was certainly Custer's fault but he had no choice. The defeat was nothing to do with him. I'm re-reading Wagner at the moment and it has cheered me up enormously. The wizard of was......... It was the Reno Court of Inquiry and it would look into Reno's behavior and did it rise to a finding of fact regarding punishable offenses.
Regards
AZ Ranger I believe that matter was heard in Chicago and concluded that matters could not proceed based upon the evidence then available. It seems that a pistol which was Maj. Reno's has come to light recently and this may offer grounds to progress matters. Rolf
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 18:26:25 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 3, 2023 19:50:16 GMT -6
Cool,thanks!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 4, 2023 8:07:15 GMT -6
It was the Reno Court of Inquiry and it would look into Reno's behavior and did it rise to a finding of fact regarding punishable offenses.
Regards
AZ Ranger I believe that matter was heard in Chicago and concluded that matters could not proceed based upon the evidence then available. It seems that a pistol which was Maj. Reno's has come to light recently and this may offer grounds to progress matters. Rolf That is not how our systems work. You don't get to keep going after someone until you get lucky. Once you reach the statute of limitations, it is game over.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Jun 4, 2023 18:16:43 GMT -6
The Inquiry was not a result of Statute Limitations but a request for personal matters of honor to be aired. I understand, correct me if i'm wrong, that Reno was so T'd off by accusations besmirching his good self, that he felt he ought to do something. As the record shows, Sitting Bull felt exactly the same way when his camp at Little Bighorn was attacked in June 1876. One of the participants left record that SB used exactly those words to his tribe, 'Do something' - when volleys of gunfire shattered his tipi pole.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 5, 2023 5:04:09 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Jun 5, 2023 6:01:22 GMT -6
Great finds with Whittaker's rumblings. He didn't always have an axe to grind and had middle of the road stuff published in ANJ soon after the battle. His view evolved though and he picked the fight, convinced Custer was betrayed. If that was so, Reno was hardly going to admit it. So, here all are 146 years on pondering the ponders. The interesting thing is the press. They uncovered some controversy and weren't able to get to the bottom of it such that all interest was and is satisfied. I enjoy the battle as an open and unfinished book which is what it is and will always be. Most analytical authors do not have the nous to realise, let alone accept there is no solution. Warfare is entirely logical and when it isn't you ain't going to get to the 'bottom' of it - whether Custer was shot there or not. One of the scouts, William Jackson i think, said on 4th July 1876, at Powder River, that a scout had said that Custer was shot in the bottom. Jackson was interviewed shortly after Far West arrived and the garrison realised that what he had been saying for days since arriving there, was true. There was no mention of a wound in the buttock with Custer, just an arrow shoved up his Percy. Is what it is.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 5, 2023 6:12:15 GMT -6
Whittaker could not be ignored, he was a writer of minor note and published THIS in 1871. John Watts de Peyster is an interesting guy and was offered generalship alongside Custer, Merritt and co. during ACW but turned it down. His treaty on skirmish line as battle line was intrinsic to the evolving military practice of the US Army which brought Terry and Reno to the Small Arms Board which trialled and adopted the Springfield riflr for the army, and carbine for cavalry. Whittaker actually could not be ignored. Besides that, his prose is excellent and he told a good story - I put him up there with R.E. Howard and possibly better. He was a gifted writer and came to strange end.... just like Howard. Regards. Without Whittaker the battle simply would not be what it is. He deserves a medal. www.nps.gov/sapa/learn/historyculture/upload/Frederick%20Whittaker_Custer%20Biographer_revised.pdf
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