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Post by shatonska on Aug 19, 2005 7:39:22 GMT -6
shatonska No shatonska, you still don't get it. These were all tired men, riding upon untrained, unwatered and unfed horses in stifleing heat, ill equipped and totally unprepared for that days battle. Benteen couldn't have gone faster. Reno's retreat is justified if for nothing else than by these factors as well. And as for Custer. When he issued the orders to attack, Bouyer was right, they were all doomed. boston passed benteen and joined custer benteen could do it too , instead kept the slow pace of the packtrain reno could rest in the timber if they were tired , all indians said there they were in very good position for the rest we say the same thing , one to one soldiers could not beat indians for the reasons you say above
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 19, 2005 7:43:35 GMT -6
OTS, in Custer's favour, I suppose it would have been a disaster if they'd even scattered slowly. He'd achieved an massive objective in simply finding them. Now, if they all go whizzing off in separate directions, what's he to do? Split up the regiment to follow each separate trail? In which case, no one unit would be strong enough to deal with the village it's following, even if by some miracle they catch up with them. And if he's found them, and lets them escape, his name is mud. --- But your question was, 'where were they going?' A good one. Most would go back to their agencies, I guess. What we maybe need to ask ourselves is: what WAS the mission? No-one really wants to round up/capture the agency Indians, do they? Because they'll come back eventually of their own accord. Isn't it the Sitting Bull/Crazy Horse nucleus, the 'winter roamers' and declared hostiles, that they're after? Maybe that's the root of the problem, Custer's so obsessed with 'getting' the hostiles that he doesn't take into account the numbers of the others. The scouts have tried to get across to him the size of the village, but there are indications that Custer's just thinking of warriors -- perhaps not factoring in that they've all brought their wives and children with them?
I do agree, though. A very different story if they could have rested up until the 26th.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 19, 2005 7:47:05 GMT -6
Ooops, I'm out of sync again. Sorry!
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Post by shatonska on Aug 19, 2005 8:01:35 GMT -6
OTS, in Custer's favour, I suppose it would have been a disaster if they'd even scattered slowly. He'd achieved an massive objective in simply finding them. Now, if they all go whizzing off in separate directions, what's he to do? Split up the regiment to follow each separate trail? In which case, no one unit would be strong enough to deal with the village it's following, even if by some miracle they catch up with them. And if he's found them, and lets them escape, his name is mud. --- But your question was, 'where were they going?' A good one. Most would go back to their agencies, I guess. What we maybe need to ask ourselves is: what WAS the mission? No-one really wants to round up/capture the agency Indians, do they? Because they'll come back eventually of their own accord. Isn't it the Sitting Bull/Crazy Horse nucleus, the 'winter roamers' and declared hostiles, that they're after? Maybe that's the root of the problem, Custer's so obsessed with 'getting' the hostiles that he doesn't take into account the numbers of the others. The scouts have tried to get across to him the size of the village, but there are indications that Custer's just thinking of warriors -- perhaps not factoring in that they've all brought their wives and children with them? I do agree, though. A very different story if they could have rested up until the 26th. obviously if they rested until 26 the outcome would have been different , indian knew custer was there village would have started north while a great mass of indians would have fight against custer on the divide as with crook , but here we have more indians fighting much harder with the village so near ,, a wise custer not separating his forces could have forced the indian to leave the battle and go back to families moving north , the next day 26 , indians would have discovered gibbon and with custer under and gibbon above village would have split to escape east and west
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Post by One Tin Soldier on Aug 19, 2005 8:21:31 GMT -6
That a commander, any commander wouldn't take into consideration the "human" factor as well as the "humane" in light of all that we have discussed seems to, (and don't get me wrong,okay), but it seems to suggest that he, Custer firmly believed that even in the face of all of this he could still accomplish this mission. Was it still his belief that they wouldn't fight? Was this the one over-riding factor that caused him to disregard Bouyer as well as the rest of the indian scouts warnings? (Remember they all took off their white man unforms and dressed for battle! Indicating that they would rather die honorably in the indian way.)
Then what is more baffling is when he knew and saw that they were putting up a fight against Reno, he continued? Was that the reason for the delay in Cedar Coulee? The unexpected fighting, causing him to think of an honorable way out of this situation?
There were alot of mistakes made early on. One was the decision to attack that day at that time given the condition of his men and horses.
Another mistake was ordering Reno to attack the village. On what basis did he order this attack? The only view that he had of the village, and supposedly that was marginal at best, was from the Crows Nest. And even then he couldn't see what the indians scouts did. But yet he ordered this attack? Why?
Then there was Benteens mission. Even from his position, surely from the Crows Nest Custer could see the difficult terrain from which Benteen would ultimately have to travel! Yet he ordered him to do this any way, knowing full well from the Crows Nest observations not only where the indians were, but also where they weren't? Why? And Why when Benteen wasn't able to do this scout from afar didn't Custer recall him earlier. Remember it was stated that the two columns saw each other and this lasted a good long time? Now for the best question of all regarding this. Once Custer discovered that the indians were putting up a fight, why didn't he order Benteen at that time ~ like immediatly to return? Why wait the 30 to 40 minutes in a Coulee thinking about it? And then to top that off after he sent the message for Benteen's return, he didn't wait but sauntered off into his doom. This doesn't make any sense!!! Especially since he knew for that 30 or 40 minutes that Reno's men wouldn't stand a chance, and that eventually he would have to retreat! In any event at some point Benteen would have to be recalled, simply if for nothing else because the indians were putting up a fight. Yet he tarried? And last ~ what could have been so important over near Benteen's supposed mission that was so important that it would have been or was impossible to recall him earlier? This just doesn't make sense!
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 19, 2005 8:31:39 GMT -6
OTS -- On the Benteen question: I know this has been discussed, and pretty much dismissed, elsewhere on this board, but here's a possibility.
Custer orders Benteen to look for 'the valley'. Many bluffs in the way to traverse, but finally Gibson gets a view; unfortunately, the glimpse he gets of the LBH valley shows him NO tepees, NO horses. He reports same to Benteen. Benteen turns back.
Meanwhile Custer, who knows full well by now that the valley is seething with Indians, is expecting Benteen to have discovered this and to be charging in from the south-west. Hence no recall.
Only when he gets that sighting of Benteen's column does he realise what's happened, and goes for Plan B, summoning Benteen to come and support his own attack.
Works for me ...
Must dash off now, I've a train to catch!!!!
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Post by shatonska on Aug 19, 2005 8:35:10 GMT -6
he didn't wait in the coulewent north soon after separation ,sent 2 messangers to benteen to be back quickly soon after benteen left
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Post by shatonska on Aug 19, 2005 9:18:28 GMT -6
gall's answer
"Did the soldiers have plenty of ammunition?"
"No. They shot away all they had. The horses ran away, carrying in the saddle pockets a heap more. The soldiers threw their guns aside and fought with little guns." (Pistols.)
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Post by shatonska on Aug 19, 2005 13:07:22 GMT -6
But the village itself wasn't that long. It terminated around MTC ford. The huge village was a result of a previous encampment, which made it seem as if the village reached all the way to Custer's battlefield. And that Custer's men on the ridge could look down and see it across the river as they perished. But that was where the previous encampment had been, before moving south to where Custer found it. one moment , woodleg states that cheyenne village arrived at the mouth of a small creek west of lbh , mtc was under cheyenne village , this creek mouth is almost at deep ravine and all maps made under indian suggestion show minneconjou in front of the medicine ford b , once people depicted village to big but now village is depicted at least to short , it was thin but long
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 23, 2005 3:18:54 GMT -6
Remember we were talking about cavalry training a few posts back? Coincidentally, that Fort Riley photograph I mentioned has just turned up on another board. If anyone's interested in taking a look, the link is: www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1803
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Post by markland on Aug 23, 2005 7:32:04 GMT -6
Elisabeth, good find. I had totally forgotten that web site which is full of info about military horse related information. One article in particular touches upon training of horse and trooper, dated 1883 from the U.S. Army Ordnance Notes. www.militaryhorse.org/resources/ordreport/no297.aspBest of wishes, Billy
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Post by twomoons on Aug 23, 2005 9:41:07 GMT -6
Elisabeth, Markland Thanks for sharing those. It's a shame that they are tearing some of these down. It's too bad that they couldn't find a way to preserve them.
Markland the article was dated post LBH. Is there anything on horse training prior to LBH? Thanks
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 23, 2005 16:23:19 GMT -6
Elisabeth:
Good point on the "hostiles" They were the main objective . . . the ones who were supposedly threatening reservation Indians if they signed away the Black Hills . . . the hostiles who were supposedly threatening settlers.
In reality, most of the hostiles were avoiding whites or only attacked those who illegally trespassed on the "unceded" land that had been assigned to the Sioux for hunting, in which the military was suppose to keep all whites out (that's another thread)
The intelligence stated there would be about 800 hostile warriors. With Custer's 650 +/- he would have no problem fighting them.
However, as the command got closer the signs of a much larger village became apparent. All the scouts now became concerned about the size and warned Custer what to expect: more Indians than the command could handle, the biggest village anyone had ever seen. Boyer, Reynolds, and Gerard issued warnings. The Indian scouts were also concerned.
The military's plan was to either defeat or force the hostiles onto reservations. I've always thought that the military must have realized that the free Sioux/Cheyenne were the hard core Indians that didn't sign treaties or ever lived on reservations and would be a hand full. I believe the fear of Indians running and underestimating the fighting ability of the hostiles cost Custer dearly. Through in hundreds of warriors that came from reservations and the battle is a foregone conclusion.
We can say that from hindsight, but still, with scouts warning Custer of the size of the village and the knowlegde that the 7th would be fighting the fiercest of warriors should have played more a part of Custer's plans.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 24, 2005 2:32:51 GMT -6
Agree. There seems to have been intelligence that some reservation Indians were joining the hostlies, and that the total could be nearer 1,500 warriors -- but did anyone expect to find them all together in one place? That, I think, was the surprise for Custer. For most of the expedition, he was followng Sitting Bull's trail, which suited him fine. It's when the scouts spot all the other converging trails that the alarm bells go off for them. It really does look as if Custer simply didn't believe the warnings. (A gathering like this was pretty unprecedented, after all.)
Custer did this before, in the Hancock campaign in '67. There, he has the benefit of the advice of the wonderful Medicine Bill Comstock, from whom he claims (in 'My Life') to have learned so much -- yet refuses to pay any attention to Comstock's firm, and correct, statements as to where the Indians are. Treats him like a designer accessory rather than an essential resource. Same thing here, one suspects ...!
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Post by Bruce Robert on May 8, 2023 12:33:15 GMT -6
Because that is what Martini knew when he left Custer's command. It has been suggested that Custer used the term. At that point, and further along the battle, there was no reason to think Custer was in trouble. You might even make the argument that Custer didn't realize he was in trouble, until he was!
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