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Post by Yan Taylor on May 8, 2023 12:56:37 GMT -6
Custer attacked with around 350 all ranks, he had no intentions of using Benteen or the pack train, so I guess that he thought he was in control and safe that he had enough fire power to do the job with what he had, even with dividing his 350. So after that he would have thought he was in trouble prior to sighting his first skirmish line.
Ian
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 1, 2023 18:02:06 GMT -6
Who ever said Martini was at Wier POINT? I did see in an interview with Camp where he refers to Weir HILL...but do not think they are the same thing. Edgerly Peaks anyone? It seems to me all of Martini's talk about reaching the high point(s) & seeing this & that coming and going describes a place a lot closer to Reno Corral... per "G" on Benteen's map? Per the high point 3500 around Sharpshooter's Hill? Per Camp's info on Weir HILL vs Edgerly (High) Peaks vs various other places on the battlefield? A bit confusing, as always. but eventually pretty clear. "Bearings July 28. N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W. To Edgerly Peak N 58 W. To Weir's hill N 68 W. To DeWolf marker N 64 W. Sharpshooters hill is 1280 feet long and the course is N 44 W."
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Post by noggy on Jun 2, 2023 0:30:25 GMT -6
Who ever said Martini was at Wier POINT? I did see in an interview with Camp where he refers to Weir HILL...but do not think they are the same thing. I thought the same, having the same interview saved on my computer. That being said, many places on Battle Ride have been called different things, so can we totally write it off as being Weir POINT? Either way: In the interview he said GAC from this place in the terrain could see parts of the village. I have never been at the LBH. Does this exclude any of today's named locations, or would pretty much every knoll "North of Reno Hill" give chances to at least see parts of the Village? All the best, Noggy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2023 1:34:12 GMT -6
I can't check because I am in work, but when martini first saw the village he was with Custer, but did he mention Reno? Derudio mentions seeing custer on a hill whilst in the timber. Now as far as I know there was only one time that custer watched events in the valley and martini claimed he was there, but he said he saw a quite village with no mention of Reno? Something is wrong here, too many ponderables.
Ian
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 2, 2023 4:22:13 GMT -6
"From this hill, {Weir Hill}, can only see the Hunkpapa & Black feet lodges” *“1700ft from Reno’s retreat up”, along with various bearings SEEMS to put it near to the left of Sharpshooter’s Hill. *"From Wier's Hill to the 2 highest peaks the course is directly northwest" *"Highest Point - Edgerly Peaks - is almost direct NW from Benteen's horseshoe" *"Weirs Hill is 60 degrees west of North from same point" *"Distance Weir Hill to 1st Edgerly Peak is 2500ft" *"from Weir Hill can see the Custodians house but not the monument nor any part of Custer battlefield"
Yes we can totally write it off - Weir Hill is not Weir Point - Edgerly Peaks are. Camp describes, and locates w/action there, the peaks perfectly - ‘high peaks with a crescent hill to the east, crescent is concave to the west’. (he sometimes calls them Reno peaks - see Edgerly interview) Martini mentions seeing Reno (skirmish) when he got back to the same ridge Custer 1st saw the village. RCOI: "I got on same ridge from which G Custer saw the village for the 1st time. On going over that ridge I looked down I saw M Reno battalion was engaged..." Camp says the same thing..."Martin says..." RCOI: "...there was a kind of a big bend on the hill - he turned these hills and went on top of the ridge'" Camp: " Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it...Hunk and Blackfoot villages...W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village." Camp: "Martin says he was with Custer after he passed the high ground and left him just after the command started down a ravine..." RCOI "Q. Where was the point you 1st saw reno fighting? Was it further up the stream than where he made the stand...?" A. About at the same place" Q. Could you see the river from that place out there? A. No Sir - the river was right at the foot of the bluff . We could see the village." Via Camp: Martini with Benteen "We marched on Gen Custer's trail & when we got to this ridge where I saw Maj Reno fighting on the bottom, we saw Reno's Command & the major retreating to the bluffs" Camp: "Kanipe showed me where Custer struck across from Benteen Creek and came out at bluff. He struck bluffs few hundred feet north of where Reno afterward corraled." '1/4 mile further was sent back. Did not go back on same trail, but further east' Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 2, 2023 5:18:04 GMT -6
For me, the primary issue with Martini is Benteen putting him only 600 yds from ford B when he was sent back. His Hill/Ridge 3411/Hill 3500 etc. info mostly seems to jive with others. (Kanipe, Curley, De Rudio, Benteen) "Bearings July 28. N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W. To Edgerly Peak N 58 W. To Weir's hill N 68 W. To DeWolf marker N 64 W." Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 2, 2023 6:13:54 GMT -6
A quiet village...part of it anyway...
BOBTAILED HORSE'S STORY OF THE BATTLE
"Cheyenne warrior Bobtailed Horse: THE CHEYENNE camp was all but deserted. A bare handful of oldsters, too feeble to get away under their own power, was left behind in the shadows of the silent lodges. A few mangy dogs, sensing danger, cowered at their feet. In one tepee lay the warrior White Elk, who had accidentally shot himself through the left thigh in the Rosebud fight. Only four other fighting men who were able-bodied remained out of nearly seven hundred" ... "When word of Reno's attack on the Hunkpapa end of the village swept the Cheyenne camp, White Cow Bull watched Cheyenne war chief Two Moon lead his men out to meet the American attackers "at a gallop," but neither he nor Roan Bear joined the departing warriors because of Roan Bear's duty to guard the Sacred Buffalo Head.
The two of them had just "settled down to telling each other some of our brave deeds in the past" when another alarm ran through the camp, this time announcing that the Americans were charging to attack the village at Medicine Tail Coulee across the river from the Cheyenne camp."
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Post by herosrest on Jun 2, 2023 18:20:19 GMT -6
Martini indicated his route from Maguire's 'B' on the map used for testimony at the Chicago Inquiry. This map was used by a number of those giving evidence and a copy exists somewhere, rather than the typescript impression offered by W.A. Graham. It's a fascinating document in that it was passed back and forth between the Court, King, Merrill, and...... i'm tired; and those being questioned. DRAT..... WHERE IS IT ON FILE......
PAUSE
I'll see if I can hunt it up. Also, it was Kanipe who departed from 3411 rather than Martin. Martin is then side-swiped north by later theory which introduced the Cedar Coulee route hog-wash.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 2, 2023 18:44:29 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 2, 2023 20:42:34 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 4:45:18 GMT -6
The '8' is an indicator for the pencil line, which runs to MTC or rather, from Mtc. It's imperfect and brings a mash of ideas with his route and departure point. I've discussed this on boards before and often the '8' is taken to be a specific point rather than reference to the hand drawn line. Imagine, Martini drew that. It's remarkable history. People (students) find what they are looking for rather than what is there, or what happened, or context. Six stone markers at the Stone House is a very good example. So is the Kellogg marker being in some obscure place very far from where it was set on battle ridge. The Newspaper, NewYork Herald set Kellogg's marker on Battle Ridge in 1896. They replaced it with a new one on the same spot in the 1930's or 1940's (I forget). I heavily researched this and proved where the marker was set and has been located ever since - yet and though, an entire alternate reality battle of D Fords is constructed on a fictious marker which Donahue has fixated since his early papers with the CBHMA custerbattlefield.org/publications/there is a ton of interesting and insightful opinion and writing about the battles by people who have devoted entire lives to its study in their fascination. That does not mean that anyone, ever, except the party with John Gibbon, knew where Kellogg lay and no-one but the burial party with Mathey, knew where the body was buried. According to Company H men who rode over the field with Benteen on 27th June, 1876; Kellogg lay in Deep Ravine. I take it you have a copy of the Dyck, Bleed & Scott, boundary report. An awful lot of nothing is made of this rarest of documents. Kellogg was found in Crazy Horse ravine, as Benteen's Company H men called it later. They did not know it as Deep Ravine. Curley did not know it as Deep Ravine and the mouth was opposite across the river from his land in the valley. He lived there until 1923 and not a word about Indians or Custer on his land or using the fords there. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 5:24:24 GMT -6
There were a slew of maps in various guises from sketch to official maps from the immediate post battle years. Charles King then updated ideas in 1890. Godfrey offered another theory in 1892. Curtis investigated and altered it again in 1908. Marquis looked into it and published in 1930ish. Kuhlman altered the battle flow in 1951, followed by John Stands in Timber in 1965. None of them could do it without mapping what happens which is its own enigma.
I missed one out intentionally, which was the Indian Agent at Standing Rock. There was another in the early days who produced a map and account based on Cheyenne accounts from within days of the battle. Ford D is a modern invention - plain and simple concoct. A senator by the name of Burdick got into it in 1929 and it seems that the truth of the thing, is that Cusrley was captured and tortured by the Sioux and then managed to escape. My own view with this is that the Cheyennes caught him and forgot about it.
Any which way, Kellogg lay in Deep Ravine. Game over.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 3, 2023 5:25:15 GMT -6
I'm finding it much easier (and seemingly more accurate to decipher) to read what is said by people 'who were there', and interpret what I think from that. When the recorder says "the witness indicated the point {that he was sent back} by figure 8" - I tend to believe that's what it is. Doesn't mean its accurate on the map vs real world - but that's what it was intended. (as they understood the map! ) When Camp WITH Martin and Curley (and a bit o' Kanipe) says Custer crossed a ridge where he saw the village (and later Reno) a bit north of Reno Corral, was on Weir Hill, went right down South Coulee {aka 'behind the high ridge for some distance south below Edgerly Peaks (AKA Weir Point) running parallel to the river'} - I tend to figure maybe they were on to something. They were there. Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 5:36:37 GMT -6
You need to get into understanding the transcripts which are anything but reliable and many were simply the press reports published daily, cut and pasted into the file. There were problems with the stenography and stenographers.... like, they couldn't keep up and weren't there, Read W.A. Graham's forewards and comments in the various books, particularly the Chicago Inquiry one he edited and published in the 1950's. The records were a shambles of deteriorating pages and inserts and it is believed as much as 50% of it....... was missing. Seriously. It was what it was and is, and not the complete and absolute rescord of what went on. There are a number of works on the transcripts and some really amazing information but it is not the whole ball of wax and never was. It was about discrediting Whittaker's book and his timing study of the battle - the first one done. The Inquiry was not about what happened to Custer but rather removing blame from Reno, and didn't that go incredibly well. The truth always outs. The battle was certainly Custer's fault but he had no choice. The defeat was nothing to do with him. I'm re-reading Wagner at the moment and it has cheered me up enormously. The wizard of was.........
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Post by herosrest on Jun 3, 2023 5:51:23 GMT -6
I was just wondering if Martini's key is for a Yale lock?
That's where Freeman"s Journal in kept and a part including the map is online. I often wonder about thise routes of march and his number '7'.
Something far more profound is why there are no matkers in the valley for the Sioux who were killed or died there?
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