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Post by shan on Apr 29, 2023 4:51:46 GMT -6
Soory, didn't mean to post twice and take up so much space. Shan
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Post by johnson1941 on Apr 29, 2023 5:11:19 GMT -6
“
Apparently Benteen initially thought (most of?) C co. was missing…he mentions it in a letter to his wife July 4th.
“… What became of "C" Co. no one knows -- they must have charged there below the village, gotten away, or have been killed in the bluffs on the village side of stream -- as very few of "C" Co. horses are found...”
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 10:51:00 GMT -6
Among the EM's ten of Company E were identified. This includes the supposed Deep Ravine burial. I stand by this having looked into it long ago as I realised the effort to commemorate each man, and with a photograph where possible; was subverting into the idea that all those named on the monument were identified where they fell.That is not so. This was a warp of Kuhlman's interpretation of the fighting beginning on the terrain immediately west by north of the monument and now blandly referred to as the 'extension'. Battle Ridge Extension. Some Springfield cartridge cases were found there from a handful of weapons which firing pin analyses indicates were (may have) been used in the Calhoun area.
The Deep Ravine burial, as explained in Chicago by the Officer in Command of that detail. was simply the collapse of a steep ravine wall onto the remains because his men could take no more than a few minutes at a time hands on, without experiencing nausea. It was therefore quite reasonable to pull his people out and find a better solution. That is the testimony which also indicated that the troops buried were less than 100 yards from the river. It's problem. The entire Company E fight is a problem and particularly because relying upon sightings of grey horses is completely unreliable since trumpeters of all companies rode greys, and one should accept that Company E fought and died dismounted. Therefore, they were not where the grey horses were. If you pick John Stands in Timber apart, you find that the 'Brave Hearts' warriors who had vowed to fight until killed (or victorious) attacked the grey horses. Not the grey horse troops all putting out volleys and skirmishing, but the led horses and their holders.
No one has figured out where those bodies were buried, exactly same with Mark Kellogg for whom there is a description of where the remains were found and good luck anyone saying hand on heart - yes, that is where he lay. After Gibbon found the corpse, and then that of an NCO, and returned to his bivouac in the valley, camped at Ford D; Lt. Mathey was sent over to the place, to bury the two bodies which Gibbon had found. No-one ever, to date, has learnt how mathey did the burials or where. Did he bury each body where it lay? Move them together? Move them to Custer Hill? Mathey had some motive to do the job properly because a vindictive Benteen was on his case. Kellogg's grave was marked as being upon Custer Hill. No one knows why, or how.
I guess I can go dig out the sources for this stuff, but you should know me by now. My data is good - always. As to interpretation, well thats the matter of remit, string length and your own views and attitudes.
Imaintain that the idea of Custer going to Ford D originates from the events and re-enactment of 1926, in particular; when 7th Cavalry shipped in from Ft. Bliss (was it?), camped at the Agency and rode to the battlefield across the lower fords in front of as many as 50,000 spectators. John Stands in Timber was there photographed by Marquis, who was writing his books on the battle from information given by Cheyenne participants and guess what...... ? Not one Cheyenne participant, and they are named in the book; told of cavalry at the lower fords. John Stands in Timber did not mention it. The reason is very simple. The foreward in the WoodenLeg book, names Marquis's informants. He also collected relics which he paid the Cheyennes for and much else. Maps. Pamphlets. Tours and nada, nothing, zero, zilch, from the people there when Custer went ripping in and got his backside handed to him - about troops going to lower fords.
This has been a quite brilliant bit of research by me. Ford D is a modern fantasy steeped in the 1926 re-enactment with its seeds planted in previous years and because the public route of access to the field is from the west. People are funny like that. Am I right? Am I wrong? Why do you care?
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 11:46:47 GMT -6
7th Cavalry riding up to LSH from the cemetery - 1926 Film. ISYK. Some of the photos taken of William S. Hart linkThis remarkable Video shows 7th Cavalry charging across the lower fords. Below, the Crowd going home. Are they using Ford A? Ford B? Are they travelling in from Reno Creek? No, they are using the rights of way. Was there a monument at Reno Hill, in 1926? NO. I'll dig out the images from 5 years earlier, when I can. A motion picture was being filmed then... 1921.... not sure what happened to that. It all took place on the hills below the monument and Stonehouse as re-enactments of the battle. The re-enactments were based upon what? What did people go home thinking? They went home having watched re-enactments of the battle based upon the fiction of we'll put on a show and get the people in.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 29, 2023 12:50:00 GMT -6
Rosebud, The supposition underlaying my response was a defeat or stalemate allowing an escape. In closing, I offered the view that Custer in the valley deploying and manouvering 12 companies would have taken and held the camp. Jan, There were not 30 men missing. What did happen is confusions abounding about the scouts escape to Powder River Depot and the later debacle of Sibley's scout and starvation march. Without trawling everything up there is stuff like Red Hawk' return within weeks which found bodies in uniform with weapons in a ravine near the river, the Buel map 'X's in the loop at Deep Ravine and so many more tales that make little sense because the show had to roll on, albeit the standard stand down and await reinforcement and resupply. There were not 30 missing men. That is why Benteen noted not found. In reality the 30 or so were on duty attending their packtrains. They were not commited to burial details. Not a lot of people know that. Regards. HR, if the pack train totals that I have are correct (data from Fred), then there could be nearly fifty (49) troopers from the five companies with Custer, travelling with the pack train which is twenty more than the thirty you mentioned. Compamy C - 8 Compamy E - 9 Compamy F - 10 Compamy I - 9 Compamy L - 13 Ian
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 13:07:53 GMT -6
Precisely. However, Benteen didn't get into West Point. You have proven my point. The packtrain crews were destroying property, horses and all sorts of odds and sods in the camp in the valley, and on Reno Hill. No one knew what was going on in that happiest of places on Earth. There were not thirty men missing. It leaps out of Benteen's text. The nature of interests in this battle during its history today, and how it will continue evolution is a symptom of the wonderful freedoms which clashed on Little Bighorns greasy grass to decide upon the progress of all involved. I went back into Company E's fates and offer a further insight. 7th Cavalry's Colonel, by 1877, Knew beyond reasonable doubt the fate of his son Jack who was shot near the river and dismembered into it. That is reliably told from Sitting Bull's camp in Canada to someone the tribe had no reason to suspect with ulterior motives. Given this timing, take in Siobhan Fallon's account of Sturgis's mother journeying in homage to her boy and consider the husbands' love for his wife. I don't offer judgement but rather insight to our humanity. Yes Darling. Jack was shot in the bottom and then.... Where Poor Jack Fell. Jerusha Sturgis at the Custer Battlefield. Lives of the Little BighornThere is specific comment to the remains below Custer's Hill. That's 1878. There is also comment about the field from 1878 by Nelson A. Miles, when the events of the battle were explained to him by the Indians who fought. 25 of them, if I remember. There was an account by a newspaper reporter for the Cherokee Advocate paper, who described the field as he found it in July 1877 and specifically located numbers of remains. This does not alter that only ten of Company E's dead EM's were identified. It was the same with each of the other four company's with Custer. Do we know the names by location of those killed in the valley? No. Can anyone, hand on heart state for incontrovertible truth that Custer was shot and died on Custer Hill? NO! What happened to the dead on Reno Hill? The Company sergeant's held roll call. If you were not detached, and not saluting back - you were dead. How many wounded were there? Calhoun and Crittenden died in position behind their skirmishing platoons on Calhoun's Hill. How many markers?
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 13:40:43 GMT -6
Yes, it's a newspaper story. linkAn alternate link
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 14:17:08 GMT -6
That was fun. I just started thumbing 'They Died with Custer', it being one of the potential sources on Company ID's on 06281876, and it burst into flames.... next! linkTwo of Company I's EM's were identified. This was in 1877 and it was possible because one had been the shortest in height. The other was the tallest.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 29, 2023 14:19:58 GMT -6
7th Cavalry riding up to LSH from the cemetery - 1926 Film. ISYK. Some of the photos taken of William S. Hart linkThis remarkable Video shows 7th Cavalry charging across the lower fords. Below, the Crowd going home. Are they using Ford A? Ford B? Are they travelling in from Reno Creek? No, they are using the rights of way. Was there a monument at Reno Hill, in 1926? NO. I'll dig out the images from 5 years earlier, when I can. A motion picture was being filmed then... 1921.... not sure what happened to that. It all took place on the hills below the monument and Stonehouse as re-enactments of the battle. The re-enactments were based upon what? What did people go home thinking? They went home having watched re-enactments of the battle based upon the fiction of we'll put on a show and get the people in. I've seen some of the videos before and it's still amazes me that many of the survivors of the LBH, both Red & White lived well into the 20th century. Iron Rail (Dewey Beard) was the last of the warriors to die in 1955 and an Indian who was in the village lived until 1960! Charles Windolph died in 1950! Hard to wrap your head around Native Americans who were not that far removed from the Stone Age were filmed. Many elderly Indians still living knew those who were at the LBH! This is not Ancient History!
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 18:11:22 GMT -6
It certainly is not ancient and very much alive for many peoples in many causes, and so because it remains significant to past and future. Iron Hail left the account of himself on the heights watching the initial clash in the valley as warriors rode out to greet Maj. Reno. Obviously his orders precluded a hospitable response. Unfortunately that wonderful account and its vision, is Humphries Miller at his best. I cannot dredge up my sources on the named E Troop fatalities but have some time for it, so i'll nail it tomorrow or with an ish on it. Memory used to be a snapping finger but age is on me. In the July, Reno sent off a report to.... the gun guys... S.V. Benet, excerpted as: ' On July 11, 1876, Major Reno reported the number of rounds used by the army, "Amt. Ammunition exp'd.-Carbine, 38,030 rounds [Amt. Ammunition exp'd.]-Pistol, 2,954 [rounds]." The total amount of rifle and pistol ammunition expended was therefore 40,984.' Source link (p37 - actually p2). That is taken by the author as shooting by troops in the valley and at Reno Hill. So rule of thumb with 600 men having total 150 carbine rounds each, including the pack mules reserve, that's 90,000 total for the regiment. 200 with Custer having 100 per man, is 20,000 thus there were 32,000 carbine rounds left on Reno Hill, less a couple of mules which got away. So, 28,000 rounds left for maybe 80 rounds per man. Any chinks in the logic?
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 18:33:27 GMT -6
I'm going to have to getcreative to jog my memory on the source for the fatality ID's but its worthwhile to point up how few soldiers were identified.
It was the close knit company structures which the men identified with. The regiment had been in penny packets scattered about on Reconstruction and northern borders for years other than the few summer expeditions.
There were no dog tags and no formal method of ID beyond someone who knew them and laundry marks with the majority left naked, flyblown, putrid and mutilated. Yup, that's Botzer, poor chap.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 18:39:29 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Apr 29, 2023 18:54:52 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Apr 30, 2023 4:48:03 GMT -6
I certainly comprehend. That, of a bunch of men dead in a ravine, ten or so belonged to company E in some reliable sense.
So, were they escaping the defeat or a company deployment after some fashion. I don't think that is complicated but accept your point that it can be awkward to assess if you do not know the numbers. 10 of 28 does not indicate the entire Company E and beyond this is wishful tinkering ala SSL and Kuhlman and JSiT.
That land west of the ravine is a pretty dumb place to make a stand and if I understood the artifact finds correctly, the troops didn't fight there but riddled the area with rifle bullets. Of course Kuhlman didn't know this and (IMHO) he was squirrel food.
You like simple, life rarely is.
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Post by johnson1941 on Apr 30, 2023 6:16:30 GMT -6
Ugh.
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