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Post by Beth on Mar 15, 2015 11:06:32 GMT -6
That's a very interesting map! Thanks for sharing it.
Beth
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 15, 2015 11:15:47 GMT -6
Thanks I have a copy AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Mar 15, 2015 19:20:46 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Mar 15, 2015 19:38:44 GMT -6
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Post by Beth on Mar 15, 2015 19:41:59 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing those links. I used to think I was pretty good at googling information, but you sir, are the champion.
Beth
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Post by herosrest on Mar 15, 2015 19:57:00 GMT -6
Google will get to know you. Format the searches with common items eg Custer blah blah and your target, and the first couple of pages should do it. If not, reformat the target. There's an awful lot to be found quickly by doing the search and then go to images. Slightly unusual initially but your brain is tuned to visuals. Works for me, unless the target is books. Regards. Added - www.sysopt.com/showthread.php?203114-SEARCHING-FOR-MICROSOFT-an-offer-to-die-for!/page2 A lot of code paging got messed up in a system change, its archive, no-one cares. Bit like Lima Bravo. Well........... not about detail, at least. Ride to ford D7 halt turn around and go to LSH. OMG....... Custer got shot at the ford. Charge" Again.......... G.A. Custer - Sir Charge-a-lot. Nothings' cheap.
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Post by johnson1941 on Apr 26, 2023 10:32:48 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Apr 26, 2023 11:13:08 GMT -6
Lt. Hare...
Q) State whether the point “B” did not afford as good a place for fording that stream as “A” did.
A) Just about as good.
...
A) I saw what was supposed to be General Custer’s trail that went down on the left bank. The first evidences of that fight was a dead man of E Company probably 300 yards from where the final stand was made. There were 28 men of E Company. I assisted in burying the men of E Company and remember more about them.
...
There was a deep coulee which ran into them near “B” with cut banks, and there was another coulee over beyond where General Custer was killed.
...
Q) State whether you found any men in skirmish line except those about Captain Calhoun. A) I did not see his company. Lieutenant Smith’s was the only one I saw and 28 of his men were in a coulee.
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography (p. 1075). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
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Post by johnson1941 on Apr 26, 2023 11:29:14 GMT -6
[CT] THOMAS F. O’NEILL: INTERVIEW WITH CAMP October 13, 1912 Says that Vickory lay right near Gen. Custer. Says Vickory lay on ground with face up and Voss’ body lay across Vickory’s head, Voss’ face being down. O’Neill was digging a trench to put Vickory in, Vickory having been 1st Sgt. of G Co. at one time and O’Neill had a good deal of affection for him. While O’Neill was digging this trench, Lieut. Wallace came and said: “O’Neill, I think that will be a good grave to bury Gen. Custer in,” and so Custer’s body was buried in it.
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography (p. 1577). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 26, 2023 17:42:54 GMT -6
Hi, '41
re: Benteen's map and'Benteen Map..."H" (28 E Co. usual) and "M" ("30 not found nor buried")...'
It wasn't possible to bury the 30 missing dead because they weren't found. With that said, Benteen's 'M' is not a place indicator but rather alludes to his thinking. They could not bury bodies which didn't exist.
In actuality, Benteen and others were confused for a while that about 30 men seemed to be missing. Custer and Reno's adjutants were casualties of the fighting. Wallace replaced them and obviously was not aware that 6 men of each company were with the pack trains. That's the missing 30 men andno-one is going to openly chirp up to being that daft. We thought there were 30 more dead than actual... How silly..... of me!
I've discussed this previously and found that people want to cling to misnomer that 30 men were missing and buried off to the west somewhere. It didn't happen. That is a confused Benteen confusing everyone else in the desperate hunt in worry for any survivors of Keogh, Yates, or Cooke's commands.
Regards.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 26, 2023 23:38:38 GMT -6
Good points HR, but it was also the Indians that mentioned a number of soldiers running off the ridge and being killed in a ravine, probably near the river.
Add this to soldier accounts and you get some firm footing to work on rather than a clerical error.
Ian
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Post by johnson1941 on Apr 27, 2023 8:21:12 GMT -6
Thanks, HR! The pack train extras was my eventual thinking too.
Cheers!
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Post by herosrest on Apr 27, 2023 13:14:11 GMT -6
Rosebud,
The supposition underlaying my response was a defeat or stalemate allowing an escape. In closing, I offered the view that Custer in the valley deploying and manouvering 12 companies would have taken and held the camp.
Jan,
There were not 30 men missing. What did happen is confusions abounding about the scouts escape to Powder River Depot and the later debacle of Sibley's scout and starvation march. Without trawling everything up there is stuff like Red Hawk' return within weeks which found bodies in uniform with weapons in a ravine near the river, the Buel map 'X's in the loop at Deep Ravine and so many more tales that make little sense because the show had to roll on, albeit the standard stand down and await reinforcement and resupply.
There were not 30 missing men. That is why Benteen noted not found. In reality the 30 or so were on duty attending their packtrains. They were not commited to burial details. Not a lot of people know that.
Regards.
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Post by shan on Apr 29, 2023 4:50:42 GMT -6
I've just posted this on the other board, and am posting it here in the hope we can broaden out the dicussion.
Gentlemen, I’m not going to get into this argument as to which coulee is which, I’ll leave that to those of you who feel more passionately about it. I will however state that in my early reading about the battle, I read somewhere that the bones of at least one trooper, possibly two, were found in upper Deep coulee, but then that’s not to say that they were killed on their way up to Calhoun hill, for they could just as well have been fleeing towards the end of the battle, and much the same can be said for Foly and Butler.
Which brings me onto a further point. Herosrest said in a previous post, that only ten men were identified as belonging to E troop amongst the dead in Deep Ravine, I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong. Now there seems to be a general concensus amongst those who've wriiten about this, that the majority of the dead down there belonged to E company,so what are we to make of this observation which states that only ten bodies belonged to E Troop? In fact I think the answer is simple. Maybe his particular individual wasn't very familiar with the men of this company, or even more likely, he found the whole buisness to be so revolting he didn't want to linger too long. There were quite a number of other men who were in the vicinity at the time who gave different numbers, and a great many more who never wrote or talked about what they saw. Probaly because they were never asked. So, are we to believe, as most writers seem to imply, that most, if not all the dead in Deep Ravine were members of E troop. can we be sure? Really sure?
With that in mind, I think much the same can be said about the dead on Flndly Ridge, or the L company men on Calhoun hill, or indeed all those I company men come to that. Can we be really sure that most of the men found in the dip between LSH and Calhoun hill were from I company? Which begs yet another question, can we be really sure that they were running towards LSH to the North, or were they fleeing South from LSH?
All of which brings me to the idea that there was a North South flow of battle. Now whilst I'm well aware that there a number of you who seem to be wedded to that particular idea, personally, I think it unlikely. For if we read through the Indian accounts, in spite of all the problems, the general feeling one gets, is that what most of them observed, was the soldiers being driven up from the river: probably from the ford B area, up onto Calhoun ridge, and then on until they halted at Last Stand Hill where they were finished off. Of course many of these accounts came from men who’d arrived late and had thus missed out on whatever had happened before the Calhoun episode. In which case, they would be unaware that Custer and his two companies had already moved on towards the fords D, if that’s what actually happened.
But look, if you favour the North South flow, then I think you have to explain why Custer and his immediate circle, plus those two companies were all killed on LSH, whilst all the other companies were seemingly killed elsewhere. So ask yourself this, was he really prepared to sacrifice himself and all those men in order that those others might get away? Surely, given that he was the commander in chief, if anyone was to help reorganise the regiment, then it would have to be him, in which case, why didn't led the way.
There’s one other thing before I finish. By the time he got back to LSH from his excursion to ford D, everywhere in front of him would have been swarming with hostiles, Indians who’d come up from ford B or several other avenues of approach. By now, as a result of having defeated Reno, they were all fired up and eager for a fight, so not much chance then for a bunch of tired frightened men riding exhausted horses to cut their way through.
Blue Horse
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Post by shan on Apr 29, 2023 4:51:01 GMT -6
I've just posted this on the other board, and am posting it here in the hope we can broaden out the dicussion.
Gentlemen, I’m not going to get into this argument as to which coulee is which, I’ll leave that to those of you who feel more passionately about it. I will however state that in my early reading about the battle, I read somewhere that the bones of at least one trooper, possibly two, were found in upper Deep coulee, but then that’s not to say that they were killed on their way up to Calhoun hill, for they could just as well have been fleeing towards the end of the battle, and much the same can be said for Foly and Butler.
Which brings me onto a further point. Herosrest said in a previous post, that only ten men were identified as belonging to E troop amongst the dead in Deep Ravine, I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong. Now there seems to be a general concensus amongst those who've wriiten about this, that the majority of the dead down there belonged to E company,so what are we to make of this observation which states that only ten bodies belonged to E Troop? In fact I think the answer is simple. Maybe his particular individual wasn't very familiar with the men of this company, or even more likely, he found the whole buisness to be so revolting he didn't want to linger too long. There were quite a number of other men who were in the vicinity at the time who gave different numbers, and a great many more who never wrote or talked about what they saw. Probaly because they were never asked. So, are we to believe, as most writers seem to imply, that most, if not all the dead in Deep Ravine were members of E troop. can we be sure? Really sure?
With that in mind, I think much the same can be said about the dead on Flndly Ridge, or the L company men on Calhoun hill, or indeed all those I company men come to that. Can we be really sure that most of the men found in the dip between LSH and Calhoun hill were from I company? Which begs yet another question, can we be really sure that they were running towards LSH to the North, or were they fleeing South from LSH?
All of which brings me to the idea that there was a North South flow of battle. Now whilst I'm well aware that there a number of you who seem to be wedded to that particular idea, personally, I think it unlikely. For if we read through the Indian accounts, in spite of all the problems, the general feeling one gets, is that what most of them observed, was the soldiers being driven up from the river: probably from the ford B area, up onto Calhoun ridge, and then on until they halted at Last Stand Hill where they were finished off. Of course many of these accounts came from men who’d arrived late and had thus missed out on whatever had happened before the Calhoun episode. In which case, they would be unaware that Custer and his two companies had already moved on towards the fords D, if that’s what actually happened.
But look, if you favour the North South flow, then I think you have to explain why Custer and his immediate circle, plus those two companies were all killed on LSH, whilst all the other companies were seemingly killed elsewhere. So ask yourself this, was he really prepared to sacrifice himself and all those men in order that those others might get away? Surely, given that he was the commander in chief, if anyone was to help reorganise the regiment, then it would have to be him, in which case, why didn't led the way.
There’s one other thing before I finish. By the time he got back to LSH from his excursion to ford D, everywhere in front of him would have been swarming with hostiles, Indians who’d come up from ford B or several other avenues of approach. By now, as a result of having defeated Reno, they were all fired up and eager for a fight, so not much chance then for a bunch of tired frightened men riding exhausted horses to cut their way through.
Shan
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