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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 7, 2011 3:43:32 GMT -6
Hi Wild, do you think then that Custer should have taken his whole Battalion down this ford and attacked the village, not waiting for Benteen and not leaving any Troopers there to meet Benteen and keep a secure flank, or are you saying that he should have attack with only Yates and Companies E & F. Regards Ian.
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Post by wild on Jul 7, 2011 11:50:06 GMT -6
Hi Wild, do you think then that Custer should have taken his whole Battalion down this ford and attacked the village Custer had blundered big time. By waiting for Benteen,Reno's entire effort is wasted. By attacking while Reno was engaged he could have gained some advantage. The Indians were surprised but had recovered and were gaining the upper hand. A determined attack across Ford B towards Reno might have discomforted them and have given Custer a 50/50 chance. But there are circumstances where all the maneuvering,all the feints,all the praying are going to be of no avail.This was one of them. Custer deployed his forces in such a manner as to hand the Indians victory on a plate. Ther is no evidence of attacks at either Fords B or D.There is no evidence of a coordinated defence. What we have is Custer departing MTC in a Northerly direction.Was this done at speed or at a leasurely pace? I go for the simplist explanation in that he was forced away from the Ford with the command fragmenting and forced to fight an uncoordinated desperate battle on foot. I think the wounding of Custer would also produce the mess on Battle Ridge. And there is also the chance the man just cracked up and the officers did not notice. If you disregard the simple solutions then there is no better explanation than that offered by Fred.And his theory is backed up by serious research.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 8, 2011 4:24:54 GMT -6
I think your right Wild, if he was going to do something, do it there and then with his full Battalion, if you look at it, Custer was defeated when the Indians had contained Reno and mustered there full force against Custer, if he could attack while the Indians were trying to kick Reno out of the woods, he may have caused such confusion that the Indians may have panicked, but at the end of the day were there enough braves to turn on Custer even though they were committed to defeating Reno, I am not up to speed on most of the ins and outs as you guys here, so its only my humble suggestion. Regards Ian.
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Post by wild on Jul 8, 2011 4:44:38 GMT -6
Right on Ian. The big hitters of this parish are Fred,DC [YUCH],Chuck,Dan has a nice understated view and AZ for plain speaking.I would include jag but I don't see him here abouts.Montrose could be but he prefers to just keep the minutes. Regards Richard
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 8, 2011 4:58:12 GMT -6
Yes Richard the Knowledge you guys have is incredible, I am just scratching the surface, but I think that the decision to string men out to wait for Benteen was a mistake, he should of either retreated (probably not an option in Custer's mind) or attack, I wonder if he said to Cook when he was sitting there waiting for Benteen ''what did you actually right in that note Cook'' (just a bit of humor), but on the other hand if Custer was wounded, maybe no one had the balls to say to Tom Custer, hey Tom he's had it, either we get out of here or attack, if we stay here we are sitting ducks, and maybe either a wounded Custer or Tom himself said no, Benteen will be along soon. Regards Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 8, 2011 8:19:47 GMT -6
Ian: Wild modestly exempts himself. He and Billy keep everyone honest.
I really think Custer had only one chance at LBH, and he blew it. Attack with everything you have at the south end, and take out as much as possible. Would the campaign be over at the end of the day? Perhaps not, but there is always tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. There are some tactical problems you approach with finesse, and other that require a bludgeon. This was the time for the latter, but Custer chose the former.
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Post by montrose on Jul 8, 2011 8:22:22 GMT -6
1. Purpose. Discuss the implications of LTC Custer conducting an early attack at Ford B.
2. Scenario. What if LTC Custer had taken advantage of the Indian warrior attack on Reno to move with speed and conduct an attack across Ford B into the village?
As Fred has pointed out, the Indian ability to stop a crossing was negligible.
3. Effect of a crossing. Crossing into the upper village breaks the Indians into separate pieces, and mitigates their powerful central position that was a crucial causal factor in this battle.
a. The Indian force attacking Reno would now have a force in their rear. If Custer moved with a purpose, he could have caused the Indians to break off their attack on Reno.
b. The horse herds in the west are now separated from both the warriors and the noncombatants fleeing north. Custer has an opportunity to deny enemy mobility.
c. Custer would be between the Indians and their non combatants. Indians would have to change their infiltration/swarm tactics to respond to this threat.
d. Occupying the village creates a threat to Indian survival. Destroying as much of the village as possible creates an operational victory. The Indians would not be able to survive the coming winter.
e. Restoring initiative. Custer's actions at LBH gave the initiative to the Indians. The Indians were allowed to pick and choose where and when to attack US forces. A bold move by Custer would restore decision making to LTC Custer.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 8, 2011 8:58:47 GMT -6
Every one is on form today, I think you are all spot on with your assessments, I cannot see why Custer had taken his Battalion all the way up round the village, only to stop and leave them selfs open to counter attacks, to come this far with over 200 men and do nothing was crazy, I know that later when the Indians had time to mount a serious attack on Custer it was too late to do anything defend or retreat, he had to attack at the earliest possibility. Regards Ian.
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Post by wild on Jul 8, 2011 10:24:52 GMT -6
An early attack acrossFord B would have given Custer a temporary advantage. The problem he faced was keeping the command together when a general melee ensued.Man for man the Indian was superior and better armed and having a huge advantage in numbers would win any brawl. What Custer had to do was charge right through the Indians to unite with Reno.Then with the arrival of Benteen who knows?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 8, 2011 11:00:25 GMT -6
Montrose,
That's the whole thing. The ONLY mystery of the LBH is why Custer did not attack/cross/something across MTCF.
1./2. I don't know if it could qualify as an 'early' attack. Certainly earlier than what I consider dubious Ford D Journeys, but still arguably too late to qualify as support rather than a separate action altogether.
Whether to disrupt or get the ponies or the civvies or just burn the thing, MTCF was the door. It was also the fastest connection to anyplace on the west, keeping shock and awe and speed with the 7th. On top of which, Custer apparently thought the warriors not with Reno were gone, which makes fear of entrapment dubious. Not saying any of that was true, just that the offered scenarios make no sense by the logic lines they claim for Custer.
3. This is just me, and I'm apparently alone in this, but I really think we should beware extending military terms to the Sioux even when it accurately if coincidently describes an ad hoc movement. The village was already in separate pieces, by tribe, and saying this "mitigates their powerful central position that was a crucial causal factor in this battle" suggests they were aware of such and had a command system to be aware of it and react.
The tendency is then to continue with that and then, suddenly, Indians are employing group tactics under command and are aware of flanks and logistics and have abandoned centuries of individual warriorhood and swarm tactics behind a preferred war chief to allow military vocabulary to be used.
a. exactly, and drawn Benteen's attention upon arrival on high ground with several attractive options.
b. yes. So why the hell did he not?
c. Well, this all depends upon the numbers, of course. Beyond a certain ratio it wouldn't matter what Custer did not involving close in air support.
d. "Occupying the village creates a threat to Indian survival. Destroying as much of the village as possible creates an operational victory. The Indians would not be able to survive the coming winter." Well, on paper they could restore themselves if allowed the summer to do so. It's just that if the 7th had attacked the village head on, burned much or all of it, did great damage, and ALL of the 7th was killed, not much changes for the Indians. Conversely, if the Indians had been ALL out hunting and their village was toasted, not much changes for them either. Winning or losing the battle didn't alter their fate, much. Not fighting the battle might have won the war, though, if it became an equal drain on Washington to track a thousand tribes down.
e. Restoring initiative. Actually, a merely coherent move by Custer would be a step up. None of it makes sense, and I don't think Custer a fool or given to falling apart. It's why I see him wounded, conscious, not ceding command and they need to pull back to sort things out.
A wounded Custer seems to keep the man and regiment we know and understand acting as logic would dictate and as the first person testimonies and early accounts and the photos support. Although, they can support other scenarios as well.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 8, 2011 22:55:50 GMT -6
Right on Ian. The big hitters of this parish are Fred,DC [YUCH],Chuck,Dan has a nice understated view and AZ for plain speaking.I would include jag but I don't see him here abouts.Montrose could be but he prefers to just keep the minutes. Regards Richard Wild Richard, What happened to your promise to behave yourself? Darling Diane
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Post by wild on Jul 9, 2011 2:07:39 GMT -6
Hi Darling I promised to behave ,not to be a Saint. Anyway he's a big boy and can take a little dig now and again. Regards Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 9, 2011 10:22:32 GMT -6
I certainly don't have the tactical training for battalion and larger size units but will still offer my opinion.
I believe Montrose and Chuck have presented at least to tactics that I would consider to have a better chance of success. First keep the regiment together and hit the village with all 12 companies from the south. The second having Custer attack the same Indians that were after Reno. If done sooner then Reno remains in the timber but if Reno is leaving when he hits the river he could turn into those Indians pursued by Custer. Benteen and the pack train could cross at Ford A and all 12 companies would be within mutually supporting distance.
That being said it is what is and we can't change that. I think reading the book Blink has opened my eyes on rapid (and for most correct) decision making. Whatever Custer understood the situation to be from 3411 on is subject to what he perceived and not to armchair quarterbacks. We can learn to make better choices in the future but we can't change how things really developed in the past.
As a side note I want to thank Montrose again for bringing PACE planning to my attention. I taught at our advance officer training for our whole department a couple of weeks ago and challenged them to go through PACE at least as a thought process and on paper with any written plan. It was well received and my expectations is that for special operation plans and search warrants it is included in the written documentation.
When we got to the emergency section I gave an example of an officer getting shot as backyard security and what would they do to assist that officer. It was a general consensus we can do a better job in the planning. We have other military experienced officers and officers that have worked for police and sheriff agencies. Some came up afterward with further suggestions.
Thanks
Steve Andrews
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 9, 2011 11:51:07 GMT -6
I went out and bought Blink a while back because of the enthusiasm here for it. I'm embarrassed because I didn't get out of it what others have.
It strikes me that, in summation, he is saying that the first impressions and first reactions of trained individuals are the result of that training and study and are not, really, mere innate animal reactions and deserve far more regard than mere random optional choice. This because they statistically tend towards being the better end of possible actions to take.
Those who admire the book more than I don't recognize this summation whatsoever, so I'm at a loss.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 9, 2011 17:13:01 GMT -6
It is how little time and information is needed to make an assessment and still be reasonably accurate. Its no big thing but the ability to do so correctly would certainly be a good thing to have as a cavalry officer.
At the same time what had worked for Custer before may have worked against him at LBH.
AZ Ranger
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