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Post by quincannon on Jul 4, 2011 18:06:31 GMT -6
William: You have hit upon the issue that prevails on the other board - Indians not being able to face two threats at the same time. As you say it is a bit of nonsense that does not pass the smell test. As long as they are capable of seeing and recognizing an emerging threat it seems to me that it would be against all human instincts not to react to it.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 4, 2011 19:13:30 GMT -6
It's difficult to say how much of a 'threat' they thought the 7th was, given they'd not exactly worn themselves out putting out scouts or organizing much of a defense or precisely quivering in fear. The night previous they had a shindig, which probably pegs the concern level, and nobody was up doing chores all that early.
It was a threat in that these units could kill you if you weren't alert, but the overall impression is that the Indians were tanned, rested, still had the Big Mo from the Rosebud, and ut veniant omnes: let anyone stupid enough come, they'd whip them. And they did.
It also points out the problems with using precise, limited vocabulary that doesn't apply to both sides. Indians had no command, no flanks, no strategy beyond today, all different than the army. When you start using terms (starting with the tactical definition of threat) for one side, it's difficult not to use them for the other and then you're caught up using terms that reflect an intent and thinking not actually there.
But when you play soldier as they do, I guess, you feel naked without the costume and the vocabulary. It's of a piece.
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Post by fred on Jul 4, 2011 19:46:01 GMT -6
when I came on sight and clicked the last 30? or is it 25 posts, there was no sign of my last post to which Fred was replying. But, when I logged in, and then clicked the Topic, which in this case is Re-Uniting there it is. makes one a little nervous of taking to long to reply, or indeed, having much too much to say. It won't disappear if you hit the "back" arrow, but then it will dupe the post. Go into the thread-- not the list of "30"-- and delete the first of the two. It should be OK after that. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jul 4, 2011 19:50:38 GMT -6
Although disagreeing with Fred I have to grant him this. If Custer was in control and on the offensive his forray in search of ford D is the only "offensive"option available to him.And the manner in which he carried it out would deliver the required carnage. Fred's scenario requires Custer to totally misread the situation. Yes!... Yes, yes, yes! Finally, somebody gets it! Yes!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jul 4, 2011 20:02:55 GMT -6
Custer expected that the Indians would focus on Reno, giving him free rein east of the river. Yes. Agreed. Yes. Yes, but Reno's command was no longer an "advance guard" once Custer turned to the right and mounted the bluffs. Six hundred is a relative number; I believe the number was greater. If you refer to "east" relative to Ford B, Deep Ravine ford, and Ford D, then, yes, I agree. Absolutely. [See my post, above, regarding "Wild's" supposition.] Absolutely, totally correct. This is correct... except at the LBH amazingly they achieved mass. Absolutely correct. Absolutely correct. Absolutely correct. And it is my belief Custer knew of Reno's plight when he was on Luce Ridge, before he made his foray to Ford B. So what does this tell you? [See my response to "Wild's" post, above.] Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Jul 4, 2011 22:47:45 GMT -6
Montrose Fred wrote, "1,500" is an over-statement, in my opinion; 900 to 1,000 is more like it.
Beyond an awful lot Custer & Co had no idea how many hostiles they faced. He never saw them all together.They were spread out over what 2 miles ?mixed up with noncombats and livestock and dust, mounted,on foot, in and out of tepees, in motion. Numbers is a very untidy place. Likewise the village.This nobody at home at ford B is crazy.Ford B just had to resemble 5th Ave on a wet Friday night.
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Post by shan on Jul 5, 2011 3:51:53 GMT -6
Fred,
the notch in your photo; are you saying that men with experience of this type of landscape would know that that indicated that there must be a ford below it? Or, that you could actually see riders moving around in that area?
With regards to your other assertion that the Indians may have been using Deep Ravine for some 6 minutes before Custer arrived on Cemetery Ridge, if we then add on your estimate of Yates not being in position in the Basin for a further 20--25 minutes, we then have the Indians using this as an unhindered highway for the best part of 30 minutes. This in turn begs the question, was this Crazy horse and his group cutting the ridge and coming down on Keogh like wolves from the hills? If so, then Keogh was already in deep trouble fighting on two fronts, and one would have thought the smoke, dust and noise would have alerted Custer to this.
If it wasn't Crazy horse and his followers---and I'm not altogether persuaded that he actually used Deep ravine ford---then one would presume that those Indians who were in the ravine would have had a nice skyline target up on Cemetery ridge to lie down and practice their bad marksmanship on. Even bad shots can be annoying; besides you run the risk that some of them are going to get lucky sooner or later, the type of situation one assumes, that Custer wouldn't have been very happy with.
On a separate matter, I've posted this several times on both boards, but people seem to want to go with the more romantic Hollywood version of what a man with the type of wounds Custer had had, would still mange to get up to before gloriously fading away to the sound of swelling music.
I have a long time friend who works for several West coast police departments, but mainly for the Seattle police department, as a Pathologist. Thus, every day he has to examine, and assess a least three or four people who died from fatal gunshot wounds; has done for the last twenty years. Knowing my interest in the subject we naturally talk about it whenever he comes over, and having read and re-read what evidence there is for Custers wounds, in his professional opinion, Custer wouldn't have survived either wound for more than 10 minutes, and that he feels, is being very generous.
If one thinks about this for a moment, if true---and why would he lie-- those around Custer being army men, many of whom had fought in the civil war and had witnessed a great deal of death and dying, would have known immediately what they were looking at. This surely would have influenced their thinking. Ten minutes isn't very long, and had this happened down at ford B, most of them would have realised that he was dead by the time they picked him up and managed to get him back on a horse. And remember, all this while being under fire. In that case, why would they keep on going North?
Personally I'm of the opinion that he was hit sometime between ford D and Cemetery ridge, but I have no evidence, and I know that hunches will get me nowhere.
best wishes Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 5, 2011 3:52:24 GMT -6
Going on what you guys have posted, the Lynch pin to Custer's Battalion's annihilation was the destruction of L Coy, I am not saying that they did not fight bravely (both Calloun & Crittenden both died at there posts as did Keogh later) but when it fell the Indians could just roll up the rest of the command. P.S. Fred I am sorry to be a pain, but I have hit a problem, please see below. Custer's HQ = 12 Two Messenger = 2 C Coy = 38 E Coy = 38 F Coy = 38 I Coy = 38 L = Coy 46 That comes to 212, Were have I gone wrong again. Regards Ian.
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Post by shan on Jul 5, 2011 3:52:48 GMT -6
Sorry,
I don't know what I'm doing, sigh, back to the brushes,
Shan
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Post by wild on Jul 5, 2011 4:12:48 GMT -6
Ian the Lynch pin to Custer's Battalion's annihilation was the destruction of L Coy, The command was so outnumbered,so outgunned so out of position and so scattered that to suggest that there was a lynch pin would mean that some kind of defence posture was in operation.The only thing in operation [as per Benteen]was a rout.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 5, 2011 4:44:20 GMT -6
You know what I mean though Wild, the Companies were put in place by there Officers and L Coy was the one that I think broke first, I am not saying that any other attack on any other Company would not of been has successful, but the destruction of L Coy, turned the flank and the rout started there, every thing after was a domino effect. Regards Ian.
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Post by fred on Jul 5, 2011 5:02:08 GMT -6
Likewise the village.This nobody at home at ford B is crazy.Ford B just had to resemble 5th Ave on a wet Friday night. Maybe I have not made myself clear enough. Where would the target be for an attack across Ford B? Yes... no one was "home" because they were all scampering north-- or west-- and the easiest way to do that was to move into the open prairie, a prairie filled with dust. A small group of Indians held the ford, but people were leaving the village. Picture yourselves as part of that exodus... would you try to wend your way through a mass of tepees, or would you head toward open ground? There was no viable target across that ford. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 5, 2011 8:55:41 GMT -6
Fred I am so sorry, I have been guilty of a school boy error with the totals, its my own stupid fault, not taking care and rushing things, please except my apology. Regards Ian.
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Post by wild on Jul 6, 2011 12:22:20 GMT -6
Hi Fred There was no viable target across that ford Well my guess is that the target situation was not going to improve while Custer waited for Benteen.
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Post by wild on Jul 6, 2011 16:32:26 GMT -6
Further. The decision at Ford B not to attack until the arrival of Benteen is a blunder of monumental proportions.Reno is abandoned,the noncoms are exiting stage left and the outcome of the battle now rests with a confused Benteen. I think something awful sad and tragic happened to our hero at Ford B.
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