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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 8:30:08 GMT -6
There is a good chance Custer looked over the Ford B area from this ridge... ... as a brass cartridge case, consistent with those used by Custer, was found there. It is also likely-- from Indian testimony-- that the Gray Horse Troop (E Company) of 1LT Algernon Smith was positioned below that knoll closer to the river. From what we surmise from the actions that followed, there was sharp but scant resistance, probably from some 20 to 40 warriors. * Cheyenne (probably at least 10): • Bobtail Horse • Roan Bear • Buffalo Calf • Big Nose • Mad Wolf (he was an old man) • White Shield (not there initially, but joined them a few minutes later) • Rising Sun • Hanging Wolf • Young Little Wolf (he first saw Custer in MTC, which should put him near the ford) • American Horse (the Cheyenne chief, returning from the Reno fight where he was not one of those crossing the LBH) • Possibly Pawnee, Wooden Thigh, Yellow Horse, and Horse Road, who were camp guards. * Sioux (thought to be around 4 or 5 in number): • White Cow Bull (Oglala) • Shave Elk (Oglala): Possibly at Ford B. A member of Big Road’s Northern band of Oglala Sioux, Shave Elk and 4 others were riding up MTC when they saw Custer’s column coming at them. They rode back down, crossed at Ford B, and it is not unreasonable—though not certain—that 1 or more of them stayed to help defend the ford. If they all stayed—and I think that is equally unlikely— then it would explain the various commentaries about 4 or 5 Sioux being at the ford. Yellow Nose, a Ute/Cheyenne, may have been another. Once his reconnaissance was complete, Custer ordered Smith's company back away and head either for the high ground to the north-- using the coulee system-- or he instructed Smith to re-join him on the knoll and the command moved back toward a re-uniting with Keogh's battalion. Many of the E Company men dismounted, leading their horses on foot... If Custer also moved into Deep Coulee, this is what he was facing... Their immediate goal was the high ground to the north, just beyond the coulee. From here, Custer would decide to drop off Keogh's battalion once again and move farther north, seeking a suitable ford below the fleeing Indian families. This is just one scenario of what could have happened. Any others are welcomed, indeed, encouraged.Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 10:45:23 GMT -6
Just for information, the photograph above was taken facing away from the Ford B area. I walked into the flat area of Deep Coulee-- off the access road-- and shot it from there. What you are seeing is Finley Ridge, ending at Calhoun Hill. The Deep Coulee area is very interesting because a "cutbank" is often referred to when the name pops up. If you look at the picture just above the last one, you will see that cutbank on the left. (The Blummer's [Nye]-Cartwright ridges begin on the photo's right.) Once you have climbed the cutbank, the coulee complex is essentially flat-- much like MTC-- then begins to rise as it reaches Finley. As you can see, Deep Coulee is another perfect area for infiltration all the way up toward the so-called Henryville area.
If I am not mistaken, you can actually see Calhoun Hill on the left side of that Deep Coulee photo and you can see the distances involved. Look very closely on the far left and you will see the same "cut" in the landscape that you see in the bottom picture. In fact, you may even be able to see a small speck there... that is a car.
What is so remarkable with all this is the distances involved. They are so vast for such a small number of men.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 15, 2007 11:39:03 GMT -6
And the distances were a factor in the separation of companies. Separation with no support made it easy for warriors to hit isolated companies.
The photo where warriors fired shows thick cover which would have hidden warriors. Even if only a small number with Winchesters it could give the impression of many more which may have forced soldiers back.
Obviously this is a current photo but it would not be a stretch to imagine the same type of cover in 1876.
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 12:06:33 GMT -6
Obviously this is a current photo but it would not be a stretch to imagine the same type of cover in 1876. Yes, and I would think there would have been many more bushes like the ones seen in the Ford B and Deep Coulee photos. Someone told me it takes a long time for those things to replenish or grow back. Is 24 years long enough, I wonder? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 15, 2007 12:15:24 GMT -6
It would depend on the type of vegetation. Some are quick-growers . . . others not. I would assume growth along the river would be quicker, but not necessarily taller.
The vegetation from the center to the left seems much denser than others. It looks like a number of trees and thick shrubbery.
I know cottonwoods grow along rivers out West so it's possible those may be the trees. The shrubs are harder to ID.
Of course after 130+ years the entire eco-system could have changed due to agriculture, grazing, etc.
Still the thick cover gives a good impression of what soldiers would have to deal with if they were attempting to cross or scout the river. It would be easy for a small number of warriors with modern weapons to give the impression of larger numbers.
Good use of cover by the warriors was a factor in Reno's rout & Custer's defeat.
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 12:17:58 GMT -6
One thing to remember, Horse, I don't recall see much heavy and tall brush in the old photos. What's with that?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by BrokenSword on Nov 15, 2007 12:25:44 GMT -6
Fred, I believe that I related that info to you. Much of the large sage at the Little Bighorn that the warriors recollected using for concelment during the fight was destroyed in the Park's 1980s fire.
Estimates were that 30 years would be needed for it to re-establish itself and 200 years to return to the degree that it was present at the time of the fire. Its now been around 30 years since the fire and no sign of large sage was found in the latest survey (Just a couple of years ago). So it seems to be as predicted.
Can you believe the fire was that long ago? Wow.
M
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 12:55:35 GMT -6
Estimates were that 30 years would be needed for it to re-establish itself and 200 years to return to the degree that it was present at the time of the fire. Its now been around 30 years since the fire and no sign of large sage was found in the latest survey (Just a couple of years ago). So it seems to be as predicted. Broken Sword-- Thanks. I knew of the fire (the archaeological work was done in the summers of 1983 and 1984... or '84-'85, I don't remember which), and you certainly seem correct about the 30/200. Sorry I missed it. I've just been so busy reading garbage, that the good stuff sometimes by-passes me. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mcaryf on Nov 15, 2007 16:57:27 GMT -6
Hi Fred
I have tended to think that the warrior defense at Ford B has been understated. The individuals you list might well be those that were on the East bank of the river but I beleive there would have been substantial numbers on the West bank also and it would have been these that would deter any attempt at a crossing.
Regards
Mike
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Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 19:50:59 GMT -6
Mike--
Go ahead, state your case. That's what these newer threads are for. I'm just setting the stage for discussion, that's all. Prepping the patient. I would love to back away and let you guys have at it here.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by conz on Nov 21, 2007 12:01:07 GMT -6
“While we were doing this [picking over Reno’s fallen], they heard the shooting and the calling down the river; a man calling out that troops were attacking the lower end of the village. Then they all rushed down below and saw Custer coming down the hill and almost at the river. I was one of the first to meet the troops and the Indians and the soldiers reached the flat about the same time. When Custer saw them coming he was down on the river bottom at the river’s bank. The troops formed in line of battle, and there they fought for some little time. Then the troops gave way and were driven up the hill. The troops fought on horseback all the way up the hill…Many of the belts we picked up had no cartridges in them. The soldiers were shooting all the time as fast as the Indians.” – American Horse, Cheyenne
When the Long Hair, the General, found that he was so outnumbered and threatened on his flanks, he took the best course he could have taken. The bugle blew. It was an order to fall back. All the men fell back fighting and dropping. They could not fire fast enough, though. But from our side it was so," said Sitting Bull, and here he clapped his hands rapidly twice a second to express with what quickness and continuance the balls flew from the Henry and Winchester rifles wielded by the Indians. "They could not stand up under such a fire," he added. – Sitting Bull
“Then I looked a few moments at the battling Indians and soldiers across the river on the hills to the northeastward. More and more Indians were flocking from the camps to that direction. Some were yet coming along the hills from where the first soldiers had stopped. The soldiers now in view were spreading themselves into lines along a ridge. The Indians were on lower ridges in front of them, between them and the river, and were moving on around up a long coulee to get behind the white men.” – Wooden Leg, Cheyenne
“We forded the river where all of the Indians were crossing it, at the broad shallows immediately in front of the little valley or wide coulee on the east side. We fell in with others, many Sioux and a few Cheyennes, going in our same direction. We urged our horses on up the small valley. As we approached the place of battle each one chose his own personal course. All of the Indians had come out on horse back. Almost all of them dismounted and crept along the gullies afoot after the arrival near the soldiers. Still, there were hundreds of them riding here and there all the time, most of them merely changing position, but a few of them racing along back and forth in front of the soldiers, in daring movements to exhibit bravery.” – Wooden Leg
"Custer then sought to lead his men up to the bluffs by a diagonal movement, all of them having dismounted, and firing, whenever they could, over the backs of their horses at the Indians, who by that time had crossed the river in thousands, mostly on foot, and had taken the General in flank and rear, while others annoyed him by a galling fire from across the river." – Horned Horse
"When the great crowds of your young men crossed the river in front of the Long Hair what did they do? Did they attempt to assault him directly in his front?" “At first they did, but afterward they found it better to try and get around him. They formed themselves on all sides of him except just at his back." – Sitting Bull
"They kept in pretty good order. Some great chief must have commanded them all the while. They would fall back across a coulee and make a fresh stand beyond on higher ground. The map is pretty nearly right. It shows where the white men stopped and fought before they were all killed. I think that is right -- down there to the left, just above the Little Bighorn. There was one part driven out there, away from the rest, and there a great many men were killed. The places marked on the map are pretty nearly the places where all were killed." – Sitting Bull
"The first two companies, Keogh and Calhoun, dismounted, and fought on foot. They never broke, but retired step by step until forced back to the ridge upon which all finally perished. They were shot down in line where they stood. Keogh's company rallied by company and were all killed in a bunch." -- Gall (vic interpreter, of course)
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 29, 2011 6:46:32 GMT -6
Hi, when Custer & both E & F Companies both fell back to join I, C & L Companies, was the Keogh sector in disarray or could Custer have formed a more steady defensive position. Regards Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 29, 2011 7:23:21 GMT -6
Ian: On the other board I have my disagreements with Keogh, which by now everyone, including God and Saint George himself knows. That said there is one point that Keogh makes that I agree with, although the evidence is far from locked in concrete.
Keogh theorizes that the order of battle for Custer going forward from Point 3411 was Hqs and E, with C and F forming one squadron under Yates, and I and L forming another squadron under Keogh. He goes on to speculate that only Hqs and E went to the ford, while the others remained in support. Once Hqs and E came back, Custer changed task organization taking F along with him and E further north (thereby in effect forming a new squadron, but still under Yates) and detached C to Keogh's I and L., leaving them on Calhoun Hill. Keogh cites as evidence that the lineup I first outlined here is how they operated before during the campaign.
No I do not believe the Keogh sector was in any sort of disarray at that point, and yes that area of Calhoun Hill with all five companies could have been defended if the perimeter were extended from the top of Calhoun Hill five hundred meters to the north. It would still be very tough to hold but I think it could have been done, unless they ran out of ammunition or water. The later being just as important as the former.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 29, 2011 7:56:00 GMT -6
Hi Quincannon, I get what you mean about ammo and water, I think the average Trooper carried about 30 rounds on his cartridge belt, More in his saddle bags, but if the horses carrying the reserve ammo got spooked, then 30 rounds per man if the troopers were engaged in a prolonged fire fight wont last that long, was there much truth in Indian accounts of squaws chasing of the Troopers mounts when they were in Skirmish lines, these women (if it were true) must have put them selfs in the line of fire and would have to be very close to the Troopers to do this task, why did the Troopers let them get that near in the first place. Regards Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 29, 2011 8:11:41 GMT -6
Ian: My instincts would say that the troopers did not have the means to say a whole lot about it.
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