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Post by quincannon on Jan 14, 2014 20:35:27 GMT -6
Piss off shitass.
Do you want to know why I think of you as a bog trotting irish pig. Mocking a good man like Ian will do for starters. Mocking a good woman like Helford reinforces it
You are now and forever more will be a pig.
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Post by wild on Jan 15, 2014 3:17:43 GMT -6
Hi Chuck You do your cause no good with language like that. Margaret decided to have a go and I'm entitled to respond to him. I can understand your whinging;rough day with DC cleaning your clock.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2014 5:13:13 GMT -6
Here again we see a prime example of the internet troll at work, he seeks his prey and strikes, the innocent poster need not mention the name of the troll, nor does his post have to contain anything to do with the troll, but as you can see on various threads the trolls only gain is to cause chaos, once the dust has settled on one thread he simply turns his attention to another, chaos just chaos that is all he is interested in, the evidence is there for all to see, how can one men make so many enemies, just in the last six months alone this man has fallen out with Yan Taylor, Quincannon and Fred, and don’t forget the three alphabet guys DC, AZ and AK, I have never seen anyone annoy as many posters as this one individual, you could add Helford to the list an English woman whose only crime was to explain the word squaw.
He is a troll and never again will I ever use his name, if you guys want to engage him so be it, but don’t forget he feeds on your replies and then even more chaos ensues, it would be a sad day if this board had to shut down and this could happen just by the hand of just one troll.
Don’t forget this Wild/Troll, over the last six months the only person I have had trouble with on this board is you! You and Chuck got involved in a soldiers fight, a fight you were clearly losing, so you tried to force me to intervene and therefore take sides, I refused and ever since then you have tracked me around the board with a vengeance, it got so bad that I dreaded logging on in the morning. Now I know that this won’t change you, you will still hunt down my posts, but what I can do is ignore you, then other people will see you for what you really are, a vengeful troll.
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Post by wild on Jan 15, 2014 6:42:00 GMT -6
Hi Ian I think on reflection you will find that most unfair. You have been part of a most vicious campaign against me.You have aided and abetted the most vicious individual to ever grace this board. You are so concerned about this board that never once have you protested against the verbal abuse put out my this man. Margaret involved himself in a discussion choosing to deal with only one issue ;your use of the word "squaw".That word was used by you in the context of "Custer would catch them chasing squaws.To protest against that is trolling?It seems you could trace my trolling back to when I protested the use of the word illiterate when applied by DC to you. Margaret enjoyed the applause from you Fred and quimcannon and supported the abuse quimcannon was posting.This at a time when I had said nothing to him. Why align yourself with 'piss ant troublemaker'' [this does make me chuckle].. Have I posted anything remotely of a personal nature against you? There is no moderation on this board.It is a rough house and I will fight my corner with reason and logic the Neanderthal mewling I leave to you and quimcannon.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2014 7:51:06 GMT -6
Chuck, I will try and amend the mistakes made in my composite force, yes it should have a higher HQ then just Brigade level, and so Divisional level command is the way forward.
By this stage in the war the British had pooled all their Armoured Car Squadrons and kept them at Corps level, and replaced them at Divisional level with Armoured Recce Regiments equipped with 81 tanks, which was not a bad thing because these Regiments contained not only Stuarts but Cromwell tanks too, so in reality you had an extra tank Regiment. So once the recce stage was complete I would use the recce Regt. as a reserve and utilise this potential.
The point you make about the artillery and being understrength at one Regiment, a British Armoured Division contained two Artillery Regiments, one was Self-Propelled (24 x Sextons), and the other was Field (again 24 x 25 pdr Guns), I wanted to be able to keep my artillery mobile so they could keep up with the advance, but I will give my force is full complement of 48.
Note though, if need be I could add a medium Artillery Regiment, these were kept at Corps level and contained 16 x 5.5in Guns.
Tank Destroyer Regiments usually had two Batteries, one towed (24 x 17 pdrs) and one Self-Propelled (Achilles).
The Motorised Infantry Brigade would be ok, as this was the standard Infantry component of the AD.
Now to the armour; the vanguard of the main assault would be the AVREs (these were not organic units), the combination of specially adapted Churchill tanks (Crocodiles, Fascines and bridging tanks, most armed with the lethal petard mortars for direct fire) and Sherman frail tanks, So they would have enough specialised AFVs to deal with any mines, AT ditches, streams and pill boxes.
The follow up force would be made up of a Regiment of Churchill tanks (again this was not an organic unit), these could take a lot of punishment and were designed for this role (the British sometimes added the Achilles Battery to the Churchill Regiment, to give it more firepower when engaging enemy AFVs).
Following this would be the Armoured Regiments;
Each Armoured Division contained three Armoured Regiments each containing 78 tanks, plus its own Motorised Infantry Battalion, now this along with the recce Regt. gives me over 300 tanks, and this is not counting the AVREs and the independent Churchill Regiment containing 58 Churchill’s.
Now on to the enemy;
By this stage of the war the German army was not in a position to defend in depth, due to shortages in man power and equipment, they could however organise a swift counter attack, so once you have broken through you must keep the momentum.
The lines were usually defended by Infantry, with the Panzer troops in reserve. Even at this late stage of the war the German Infantry Regiments still used the 50mm Pak 38, although the 75mm Pak 40 was available, most of these went to the Panzer Divisions.
The standard frontage for a German Infantry Battalion was around 2000m long x 1500m in depth, this would be stretched further by this stage in the war, so really a 2000m line could be defended by one or two Companies with 4 or 6 Anti-Tank Guns (a mixture of 50mm and 75mm), plus the another 4 to 6 MMGs, 4 81mm Mortars and if they were lucky a couple of 75mm Inf Guns. Each Company would have around 9 LMGs, and the usual Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts.
In support they would have their Regimental Mortars (81mm & 120mm) and Divisional support in the form of 105mm Howitzers.
Mobile reserve; By this stage of the war the German were really digging deep, so the chances are that any reserve would be made up of Assault Guns and Infantry mounted on Trucks plus and towed Gun from 20mm to 88mm.
The ground; Well I have based this scenario to be fought around northern France in say mid-August 1944, so apart from the usual rivers and streams the attack could be advancing over good tank country.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 15, 2014 9:34:38 GMT -6
Ian: I misunderstood your use of Armored Regiment. My understanding was a British Armored Regiment was what we would call a battalion.
My preliminary thoughts are these. You intent is to create a hole, and then fill it with an expanding torrent of forces to penetrate and move quickly into the rear, with a strong enough force to push aside and render irrelevant any enemy mobile reserve. I am assuming that you do not already have a specific point where you wish to penetrate, and therefore your plan is not fully developed
What you do have is a template of enemy frontage, and a basic knowledge of the type of force confronting you. What you glean from this is that this enemy force can be strong in places, but not in every place
You task organization must comprise infantry and armor integrated into battalion task forces at every level. The typical cross attachment is two tank companies to one infantry, or two infantry with one tank. Your initial penetration force should be no stronger than one brigade so organized. Another like sized and composed brigade should be in reserve. A third brigade should be spread out on a wide front directly behind you reconnaissance assets.
So assuming you have intent but no specific plan, I would suggest Recon Pull across your entire divisional front with the mission of detecting gaps. There will at least be one. There has to be one. Once detected you step up pressure with that third brigade all across the front, and quickly follow with a brigade sized punch at that detected gap. I don't care if the gap is defended by only a platoon, throw a brigade at it. Do not concern yourself at all with the lips or shoulders of that gap penetration, move to the rear as fast and as forcefully as you can. If you recon pull identifies two or more additional gaps, and that location is far enough from the first, so as this deep penetration force will not get entangled with the first one you sent through repeat the process, and then as pressure in the enemy rear intensifies, move your holding brigade the one on the wide front forward keeping in contact at all times with the enemy.
Let the enemy concern himself with reserves not you. Let your reserve be that force least in contact. Keep your recon functional at all times and never consider it being in reserve. Call upon corps artillery and tactical air assets. In the case of tactical air make sure you have air control officers with each brigade and each battalion if possible. Those aircraft can serve as deep recon assets for you. Make sure the both report (to you) and attack anything and everything. Use your artillery with as much precision as possible. If you think six rounds will do, fire sixty.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2014 10:23:35 GMT -6
Hi Chuck and thanks for the help, I was thinking along the lines of splitting up the Infantry Brigade and allotting one Motorised Battalion to two of the Armoured Brigades three Regiments, the third Regiment could utilise the Brigades own organic Motorised Battalion. That would leave me a spare Infantry Battalion to use at my discretion. The reason I wanted to use the specialist Armour along with the heavy Armour was to create a gap, your concept of finding a gap with your recce units is a good idea, but because the Armoured Divisions swapped their Armoured Car for Light/Cruiser Tanks, I would have to use them in the role of Armoured Cars, I could ask for the assistance of the Royal Armoured Corps and get my hands on a couple of Squadrons of Humber’s. I suppose the objective I was looking for would advancing from the Seine and capturing Amiens, all this came out of the idea of formulating a large attack then breaking it down to small unit battles. Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on Jan 15, 2014 10:49:08 GMT -6
Ian: In order to be effective recon assets must themselves be a combined arms force, at least mobile recon assets like we are talking about here. We had those Company D's in our tank battalions equipped with light tanks supposedly from recon, and they were complete failures. You must have dismounts for close in reconnaissance, such as route and bridge classification, or to see without being seen. Stuart equipped battalions could not do this. Yes you can dismount from a tank, but you lose vital crew members in the process. It must contain some element to get you out of trouble if need be. This is where light tank and armored car come into play. And finally it must have some indirect capability in case you really get into trouble. Mortars at platoon level, and a battery of assault guns at battalion level are ideal.
There are two concepts you should familiarize yourself with Recon Pull and Recon Push
Recon Pull is used in absence of a specifically developed plan, where you are looking for opportunities. Recon Push is when the plan has been decided upon and you are out looking for the very specific to aid in plan implementation. The first is geared to what the enemy may have to offer, and the second one devoted to knowing what the enemy offers and finding a work around.
You waste armor in a slug fest. You use those tracks and wheels as a weapon to out pace your adversary and force him to react to you.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2014 13:35:23 GMT -6
British Recce Squadrons did have an Infantry element for those tricky jobs Chuck, as you said, it leaves specialist crew members to do the work they were trained to do and leaving the dismounted work to the Infantry.
British Reconnaissance Regiment 1944
Regimental Headquarters (6 x Officers & 30 x Men); 1 x Armoured Car 2 x Light Reconnaissance Cars
Headquarter Squadron (9 x Officers & 184 Men); Squadron Headquarters (2 x Officers & 8 x Men); 1 x Light Reconnaissance Car Signal Troop (1 x Officer & 23 x Men) Mortar Troop (1 x Officer & 40 Men) Anti-Tank Battery (3 x Officers & 64 x Men) Administrative Troop (2 x Officers & 49 Men)
Three Reconnaissance Squadrons (9 x Officers & 187 Men), each comprised of; Squadron Headquarters (2 Officers, 38 men); 1 x Light Reconnaissance Car Assault Troop (1 x Officer & 38 Men) Three Scout Troops, each comprised of; Troop Headquarters (2 x Officers & 7 x Men); 1 x Armoured Car 1 x Universal Carrier Reconnaissance Section (12 x Men); 2 x Armoured Cars 2 x Light Reconnaissance Cars Two Carrier Sections, each comprised of 9 x Men; 3 x Universal carriers
Total Strength of; 817 all ranks (42 x Officers & 775 x Men) 28 x Armoured cars (Daimlers, Humber’s or AECs) 24 x Light Reconnaissance Cars (Daimler Dingo Scout Cars or Humber Scout Cars) 63 x Universal Carriers 6 x 3in Mortars 8 x 6 pdr Anti-Tank Guns
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 15, 2014 13:59:25 GMT -6
OK. So they were not all that different from armored division, and corps level cavalry reconnaissance squadrons in US service. I see no mention of self propelled howitzers, what we called assault guns (at least that is what they were called in the cavalry). I think that a great organic deficiency, but presumably they came from somewhere.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2014 14:14:35 GMT -6
Chuck, any heavy work was left to these brutes (AEC Mk IIIs), they carried a 75mm gun for close support work. Attachments:
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Post by quincannon on Jan 15, 2014 14:17:53 GMT -6
I was speaking more of indirect fire, something that does not seem capable of.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2014 14:31:59 GMT -6
Do you mean along the lines of M7 (Priest) or M8 HMCs? If so then no, they had a Mortar Troop located with the HQ Squadron, not sure but I think they were organised along these lines;
British Mortar Platoon 1944-45
Platoon HQ
1 x Lieutenant (Pistol) 1 x Range Taker/Private (Rifle) 1 x Mechanical Fitter/Private (Rifle) 1 x Driver/Mechanic Private (Rifle) 1 x Carrier
1 x Platoon Sergeant (SMG + Motorcycle) 2 x Orderlies/Privates) (SMGs + Motorcycles)
3 x Mortar Sections containing two Mortar Detachments and one Ammo Section each:
1st Detachment 1 x Sergeant (Rifle) 3 x Gunners/Privates (Rifles) 1 x Driver/Mechanic Private (Rifle) 1 x 3in Mortar + 66 x Rounds of Ammo
2nd Detachment 1 x Corporal (Rifle) 3 x Gunners/Privates (Rifles) 1 x Driver/Mechanic Private (Rifle) 1 x 3in Mortar + 66 x Rounds of Ammo
Ammo Section
1 x Lance Corporal (Rifle) 1 x Batman/Private (Rifle) 1 x Driver/Private (Rifle) 1 x 15 cwt. Truck 1 x Boys ATR or PIAT 73 x Rounds of Ammo
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 15, 2014 18:12:26 GMT -6
So in a way Recon Pull is really acting on your initiative, using maps, checking up every country lane and village looking for a weak spot in the enemy lines.
Recon Push is trying to crack the enemy’s line after first establishing his positions.
British Recce units either from Armoured Divisions, Infantry Divisions and Reconnaissance Regiments held at Corps level (yes they are all different and change there make up as the war progressed), had nothing heavier than 81mm Mortars (Indirect fire) and 6 pdr AT Guns (Direct fire), some units had close support AFVs but these are rare and most Armoured Cars had at best either 2 pdrs or 37mm Guns.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 15, 2014 18:32:11 GMT -6
Recon pull is trying to find a place to attack/penetrate whatever. Recon push is having already decided where you intend to do the dirty deed, obtaining the information necessary to do it faster, better, more efficiently Pull can transition to push very rapidly, and that is one of the prime reasons you employ a robust, but still not overly large reconnaissance force, and you never stop the recon process. Information is the life's blood of battle.
I am very hard on George as you know for not using the assets he had for shaping the battle space. Had he done so it would have been a pull, and the rapidity of the situation would most likely preclude a push. That information would have to be aced upon in hours and minutes.
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