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Benteen
Mar 20, 2005 10:55:50 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 20, 2005 10:55:50 GMT -6
Nice poetry. I thought you were the sheriff, not the Indian ? ;D But I see, you forgot to answer my still disturbing points about the pack train... ? Are you doubting ?
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Benteen
Mar 20, 2005 16:01:46 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 20, 2005 16:01:46 GMT -6
Xav, your points regarding the Pack-train are very disturbing !
You have your mind made up,no matter if you are wrong. One minute you quote Michno,the next you disregard his conclusions,Red Feather and the rest of the Indians chasing Reno's troops up the hill could not have possibly seen the pack train arriving at the same time.Impossible!! They might have seen the pack-train after the Custer fight,or even seen them away in the distance,or had heard from another Indian later on. If you were right,Weir would be already on his way,before he even got to Reno Hill. You are also dismissing Gray's accounts,another name you put forward. Xav,as Walt has already stated,the Sioux/Cheyenne on that day won by the proverbial mile or ten.And if you are trying to Blame everybody apart from GAC for this defeat think again.
"Bad generalship won his[Custer]first Indian fight,and lost him his last" Frederick Van de Water 1934
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Benteen
Mar 20, 2005 23:42:02 GMT -6
Post by Walt Cross on Mar 20, 2005 23:42:02 GMT -6
Source: "Harvest of Barren Regrets the Army Career of Fredrick W. Benteen" by Charles K. Mills. Page 279.
"During my fight with the Indians," Reno wrote, "I had the heartiest support from officers and men; but the conspicuous services of Brevet Colonel F. W. Benteen I desire to call attention to especially, for if ever a soldier deserved recognition by his Government for distinguished services he certainly does."
Without exception, those officers who survived and commented on the battle echoed Reno's sentiments about Benteen. "if it hadn't been for Benteen," Lieutenant Gibson told his wife confidentially, "every one of us whould have been massacred...I think he is one of the coolest and bravest men I have ever known."
End of citation. That is how his contemporaries, the very men that were there, thought of him. I'm no big fan of Benteen, but he did some very good work once the kettle was in the fire.
Walt Cross
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Benteen
Mar 22, 2005 9:31:52 GMT -6
Post by BJ Markland on Mar 22, 2005 9:31:52 GMT -6
"Benteen ca be compared to Edward Wynkoop, another great liar of the Great Plaines who invented testimonies in the Wanutsa to make the people of the East believe it was a massacre. A majority of the things we know of Wanutsa come from a witness, friend of Wynkoop, Leavenwoth, who was not in the battle and has never been on the area. A majority of what we quote about the time-line of LBh come from Benteen and Reno, and we can say that all is lies or half-lies. When you read the pack train arrives at 17h25, check out before the testimonies of soldiers. When you read what Benteen saw from Weir Point, check out the testimonies of the men around."
Wyncoop was a former, well-respected Army officer who served as commander of Ft. Lyons. He had gained the trust of Black Kettle by particpating in the rescue of captives from the 1865 raids along the Oregon Trail and Little Blue. He accomplished this by going out in the wild with a small force and negotiating with Black Kettle. He earned their respect. He may, from rumor, have been a drinker but he seems to have genuinely liked and respected the Cheyenne. For his mission to prevent further war and rescue the hostages, he was relieved of his command by the current district commander, whose name escapes me now, and replaced. Thus, we had Sand Creek. I am fairly confident that if Wyncoop had still commanded, Chivington would not have had carte-blanche as he did.
At the time of Washata, Wyncoop was serving as Indian Agent for, I believe, the Cheyenne, thus he had a somewhat biased view, especially since his friend Black Kettle had been killed. Jesse Leavenworth was also a respected Indian Agent. He was later railroaded by enemies on, from what I remember, seemed to be particulary bogus "fraud" charges. I do know for a fact that he directly participated and negotiated the release of many hostages from the Commanche and Kiowa.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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Benteen
Mar 22, 2005 10:08:28 GMT -6
Post by BJ Markland on Mar 22, 2005 10:08:28 GMT -6
I keep hearing about the "15 minute break" which I presume occurred at the morass where Benteen watered his horses after rejoining the main command's trail.
Question for all: had the horses been watered that morning? I know from testimony and affidavits that there was no water found along the path of his southern "scout." Also, the second halt of 15 minutes. In the manual, there is a required 15 minute halt but I don't have that manual handy. Was the second halt prior to Martin's message and verbal observations? If so, I would respectfully suggest that since a calvaryman's offensive value depended directly upon the condition of his horse, that Benteen was being a concientious officer. At the time, he was not marching to the sounds of gunfire beyond but, if he even could have heard it, sounds of skirmishing from the valley around Reno's position.
A question for all: Benteen is being castigated for proceeding at a trot and walk. The question is, why should he expend/waste the horses' energy by chasing willy-nilly down a trail when he was only told to "come quick." The manual does give alternating gaits as the most economical for the horse as well as the overall most efficient for getting places. The gallop was saved for a charge or other urgent matter.
Elisabeth (hope I spelled it right, my apologies if not), there was a very significant cholera outbreak among the Kansas forts in the summer of 1866 and even worse in 1867. Since I have adopted the project to identify ALL U.S. soldiers who died on the Western frontier (from all causes), I am absolutely, 100% sure and for anyone who may doubt, I can back it up with primary source material. The 7th was fortunate in being in the field as their losses from cholera that summer were low, seemingly to strike men who had been left behind in the posts or on the Smokey Hill route. In addition, they had men drowned during the flooding which took place at Ft. Hays that summer (1867). The regiment hit the worse had to have been the 38th Inf. They had 76 men, of approximately 120 men who died during the year, die from cholera. Five of those died late May-first week June, '67, the remainder, except one, died the second week of July thru the first week of August, '67. The exception just mentioned died in September '67. The above comes from a quick survey of the photocopies I have made of the regimental return for the year-end, 1867. Speaking of which, somewhere on my site I have scanned the first regimental return post-LBH listing the casualties of troops. I will get that URL to Diane later.
Best of wishes (time for work!),
Billy
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Benteen
Mar 23, 2005 3:54:28 GMT -6
Post by michigander on Mar 23, 2005 3:54:28 GMT -6
Bigpond, you don't have the truth just because you think Custer was not a good commander you know? I can use a thousands of nice historian's comments to contrast the statement of VandeWater. For exemple Don Horn, John Carroll, Robert Utley, Robert Frost, Tom Hatch, Paul Hutton and others. What Van de Water stated was just an opinion of his own.
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Benteen
Mar 23, 2005 16:50:07 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 23, 2005 16:50:07 GMT -6
Bigpond, you don't have the truth just because you think Custer was not a good commander you know? I can use a thousands of nice historian's comments to contrast the statement of VandeWater. For exemple Don Horn, John Carroll, Robert Utley, Robert Frost, Tom Hatch, Paul Hutton and others. What Van de Water stated was just an opinion of his own. TEXTAt this moment in time from what I have read,from books,forums,and my CAB stuff,I am of the opinion that GAC was not as competant a leader as some make out. He got away with poor leadership at the W.A.S.H.I.T.A,but didn't at the LBH,thats why I think Van de Water quote sums him up for me.
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Benteen
Mar 23, 2005 18:15:03 GMT -6
Post by michigander on Mar 23, 2005 18:15:03 GMT -6
That's your opinion. From what I readed, I think otherwise. We are then both happy.
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Benteen
Mar 23, 2005 18:51:02 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 23, 2005 18:51:02 GMT -6
;D
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Benteen
Mar 23, 2005 18:58:14 GMT -6
Post by michigander on Mar 23, 2005 18:58:14 GMT -6
Happy that you have sense of humour. I found fantastic when it happens me to disagree with someone that don't lose his civil manners. Thank you Bigpond! Garryowen!
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Benteen
Mar 25, 2005 16:09:19 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 25, 2005 16:09:19 GMT -6
You quoted De Water, oh please Big Pond, I'm not answering you with Libbie's account. I just hope you won't quote me Welch or Dee Brown for good historians !!!
No, impossible is not english. I have 10 testimonies of people who say the pack train arrived quickly. Those I quoted, and another one... from Reno (report of 1876) : "The pack train arrived very quickly" Reno, court of Inquiry, 1879 : "The pack train arrived 1h30 later..."
I help you big pond, there is a difference between them. search.
I'm not refferring to historians but to the material they use. Testimonies. You know what, Bigpond, John Gray was not involved in LBH, but the witnesses were. I want only to believe those who saw. Proove your opinion about the pack train, or admit you are wrong.
For example, Fox said it was no last stand and Gray said the fighting was finished at 17h30. Both are false, if you look at the Indians testimonies.
Listen to them.
And your point of view about Custer is biaised. His Civil War career was incredible, and his strategy at LBH was good. Experimented american leaders said that, Nelson Miles, John Mac Laughin. Thomas Rosser, Joseph Johnston....
This is a debate Proove, or be quiet.
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Benteen
Mar 25, 2005 16:14:47 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 25, 2005 16:14:47 GMT -6
I'm no big fan of Benteen, but he did some very good work once the kettle was in the fire. Walt Cross The only problem, Mr Cross, is that the kettle was on fire very, very late. And it cost 210 lives. When Benteen and Reno were on Weir Point at 17h50, when they could see the rest of Custer's battalion fighting and didn't do anything to support them, when Benteen and Reno were hearing during two hours the Custer's men fighting and they didn't move, I would not see Benteen as a great leader because he made a charge on June 26th although he didn't want to go fighting the previous day. If you look at this battle closely, and I know you do, you know that something sounds wrong. When you look at the biaised Court of Inquiry, you know something sounds wrong. False map, false testimonies, false signatures, false numbers of kilometers.... Please ! Wake up !
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Benteen
Mar 25, 2005 16:18:49 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 25, 2005 16:18:49 GMT -6
I keep hearing about the "15 minute break" which I presume occurred at the morass where Benteen watered his horses after rejoining the main command's trail. Question for all: had the horses been watered that morning? I know from testimony and affidavits that there was no water found along the path of his southern "scout." Also, the second halt of 15 minutes. In the manual, there is a required 15 minute halt but I don't have that manual handy. Was the second halt prior to Martin's message and verbal observations? If so, I would respectfully suggest that since a calvaryman's offensive value depended directly upon the condition of his horse, that Benteen was being a concientious officer. At the time, he was not marching to the sounds of gunfire beyond but, if he even could have heard it, sounds of skirmishing from the valley around Reno's position. A question for all: Benteen is being castigated for proceeding at a trot and walk. The question is, why should he expend/waste the horses' energy by chasing willy-nilly down a trail when he was only told to "come quick." The manual does give alternating gaits as the most economical for the horse as well as the overall most efficient for getting places. The gallop was saved for a charge or other urgent matter. ------ Benteen watered the horses two times. No discussion for the first. But the second was useless, and even soldiers and officers were surprised of Benteen slow march. According to Godfrey, Weir became upset and obliged his own company to move. after that, Benteen was obliged to move too. Utley : "Nothing can give excuse to Benteen's behavior".
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Benteen
Mar 25, 2005 16:32:16 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 25, 2005 16:32:16 GMT -6
Mr. Markland,
Edward Wynkoop was a liar and a swindler At Sand Creek, he promised to Black Kettle to be under the US protection although the army told Wynkoop that Black Kettle and his tribe has commited massacres in Colorado and will be punished. After Sand Creek, Wynkoop gathered some friends (John Smith, Silas Soule) and they gave false testimonies about Sand Creek. A majority of what the american people know about Sand Creek are testimonies of people who never go to the area and never saw anything. Doesn't mean nothing was made at Sand Creek, but this false inquiry show you the Wynkoop's honesty Wynkoop did the same at the W.ashita. He gathered some friends who never went to the Washita and they said Black Kettle was a peaceful chief (his tribe killed 353 men, women and children in Summer 1868) and so on...
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Benteen
Mar 25, 2005 19:04:53 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 25, 2005 19:04:53 GMT -6
Xav, this is the last time I am responding to your incessant ramblings.
In your opinion everyone is a liar who dosn't agree with your way of thinking,about GAC.
The Indians didn't wear rolex's,time was imaterial to them.
When a soldier says the pack train was quick,how quick ? quick for a pack train ? These people on that hill had been through a ordeal,they would be shaking in there boots,traumatised,time would mean nothing to them,after benteen has arrived ,they would feel safer,with everything going on,and time passing,It might feel as if the pack train was quite quick. Mules and someone else in my thoughts are pretty stubborn animals,and not easy to control.
Your 10 proofs would be dismissed out of court.
Since you where there Xav,please set the record straight,what time did the battle finish,or should i say Custer fight finish. others were still fighting long after your nemesis had copped it.
It wasn't really a last stand as in Hollywood style,some were running,some were huddled together,how long was this part of the fight Xav,10-15,20 minutes at a push.
His [Custer] career was excellent in the Civil War,but he was fighting indians on there terms.
Whatever his reason for looking down MTC,that sealed his fate, from that moment on,the Indians held all the aces. he had his cavalry troops on ground totally unsuitable for there use.and it was of his choosing.He slpits his command even further,and has them streched from calhoun hill along battle ridge,while he goes North.Allthis time the Sioux/Cheyenne are coming over in there droves,the South is cut off,the east and west too.they are also coming up deep coulee.Surely he must pull all his men together and fight as a defense unit,nope.from the fall of calhoun Hill till the LSH how long did this take,as long as a hungry man eats his dinner.
remember both Reno & Custer done exactly the same things,but with different results,charge,skirmish,run,fight,but only one man came though it all to tell.
Please spare us the Libbie utterings,she had to sell books,to make up for the debt he left her. By the way Xav did Libbie ever visit the LBH ?
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