Benteen

[shatonska]

first option

[bigpond]

I take it the question is was Benteen to blame for Custers annihilation.

No

[weir]

Well, he burns in hell also. ;D

Sure he does. He has the responsability of the death of 263 men.

Benteen waited 30 minutes of halt while Custer gave him two orders to move quickly.

Benteen waited 32 minutes to follow Weir.

And finally his inacceptable retreat from Weir Point while Custer was engaged.

[elisabeth]

He waited, it's undeniable. If he'd gone at once, and if -- a big if -- the Indians had obligingly attacked Custer's five troops later, less effectively, or with less force -- it's just conceivable that the appearance of his battalion on the skyline might have been enough to make them 'skedaddle' ... but that's unlikely, with their families in the village to defend. More probably, the sheer weight of numbers and the cavalry-unfriendly terrain would have seen Benteen's men wiped out too. And then the remainder of Reno's. So I don't believe that in the end it would have made much difference to Custer.

In Benteen's defence:

1. There was no suggestion in Custer's initial orders that he regarded Benteen as a reserve. His orders were, effectively, to go off into the wild blue yonder and keep on going. At the time of the 'bring packs' order, Custer could have no notion of where Benteen might be. It was pure chance that B. had sensibly decided he was on a wild-goose chase, and had turned back onto the trail where Martin found him. If he'd obeyed his orders to the letter, Martin could have been searching for hours, and the question would be moot.

2. 'Come quick -- bring packs' was a self-contradiction, as Benteen knew only too well after having the pleasure of escorting the mule-train on the 2nd day of the march. The mules were miles behind, and were horrendously slow. He can't be faulted for concluding that his troops, with their full complement of ammunition, fast, were going to be more use than troops plus pack-train in several hours' time.

3. He then finds Reno under fire. Further, Reno has completely gone to pieces. What is he to do? Walk away, and leave them to be annihilated? He obeys the first rule of soldiering, 'march to the sound of the guns', and takes charge: calms the men, organises a defence.

4. Why doesn't he THEN attempt to get through to Custer, when 'the sound of the guns' can be heard from his area? Here it's harder to let him completely off the hook. But remember that he was at Washita. He saw Custer go off and abandon Major Elliott. Reno inherited Major Elliott's job; part of Reno's panic may have sprung from suspecting he was inheriting his fate, as well. (The 'support you with the whole outfit' promise, promptly followed by Custer cheerfully disappearing.) Benteen, never one to give Custer the benefit of the doubt, probably thought the same. This was his chance to save a doomed command, as he had been unable to save Elliott's. So yes, he disobeys orders, but they were orders given in ignorance of Reno's situation. He obeys the situation as he sees it.

5. At this point, Benteen hasn't seen the main village. He doesn't know the immensity of what Custer's up against. He can hear gunfire, sure, but has no reason to suppose Custer's in trouble.

6. When Weir makes his sortie, he's quickly turned back. Would Benteen have been any better able to get through? Unlikely.

In sum: Benteen did disobey orders. Partly because he (always) thought he knew better, and partly because of his hatred for Custer -- in the sense that he thought Custer had left Reno in the lurch. NOT, ever, because he 'wanted' Custer's entire command wiped out! He had friends with it; and it was Custer's cavalier attitude towards loss of life that enraged Benteen against him as much as anything else. But his disobedience was what saved the lives of those who DID survive. He suffered enough for it in the aftermath; can't we forgive the poor man now?

[weir]

(sorry for my english mistakes, I hope you can read what I want to explain)

I cannot understand how you can like this guy. All his accounts are lies. He dirtied the memory of Weir in newspapers accounts. He lied about Elliott at the W.a.s.h.i.t.a

I'm sure that if Benteen had come and Reno had stand in the woods, Custer would have clearly won the battle of the Little Bighorn. Napoléon lost Waterloo because of Grouchy. Custer because of Reno and Benteen.
The numbers of Indians warriors or their behaviour is not the explanation. At Wagon Box, soldiers faced Indians in a order of one soldier for 75 Indians. In Beecher's Island it was one to 41. In Little Bighorn, only one to 5. We have to be realistic. This battle was not, as Reno said, "impossible to win". All army frontier generals admitted that.

For Benteen prosecution :

1. He completly lied all along the Reno Court of Inquiry. He send a petition for his own support by soldiers which were made with false signatures. He presented a false map. He gave false numbers of kilometers rode by Custer's men to Terry. 90% of what Benteen said about the Little Bighorn had been demonstrated as lies.

2. Benteen claimed he was 16 kilometers of Reno Hill when Martini reached him. he was actually 3 kilometers far from it.

3. Benteen made a halt of 15 minutes after receiving Kanipe's order to ride quickly. After this halt, his rode by trot. After about one mile, he made another halt of 15 minutes. Finally, captain Weir, completly upset, ordered his company to mount, and obliged Benteen to move.

4. After receiving the order from Martini, he ordered to ride by trot. As Weir became angry, Benteen ordered him to take the rear of the column to humilitate him, and ordered anyway to ride by trot. He still disobeyed.

5. Benteen claimed the pack train arrived 1h30 after his arrival on Reno Hill. In fact, according to testimonies (Martini, Churchill, Mathey), the pack train arrived immediately, in a while of about 5 minutes.

6. According to testimonies (Godfrey, Hare, Davern, Varnum, Moylan, Churchill, Mathey...) it was a ridiculous number of warriors around Reno Hill and "they don't even shoot on Reno's command" ! No testimonies tell the contrary, except Reno's and Benteen's...............

7. Weir disobeyed for the second times and lead his company to the north, while Benteen was refusing. Then Benteen waited 32 minutes more before going.

8. Benteen put a flag on the Weir Peaks for the attention of Custer. But after that he refused the combat on Weir Point and ordered the retreat. "we were not driven back by the Indians. The orders were to retreat and we retreat" (Lt Hare).


Benteen didn't only hate Custer. He hated everybody. Check a little about him. He said Martini was a stupid person. He said French was crying on Reno Hill. He said Weir was a drug addict. He hit Reno once.
Benteen was not appreciated in the regiment, because he was jealous of everybody.
"The hatred of Benteen was cancerous" (Jeffry Wert).


The... poor man ?? He let 263 men dying while he was riding. His battalion fired the first shots at 18h30, when Custer's men were already dead.

Benteen is the treator of the Little Bighorn. According to what you wrote (Reno was under fire when Benteen arrived), I suspect you to believe the Benteen's report. 90% are lies.

A new word has even be created from the Benteen's behavior by historians : "Benteenism", or "how to lie".

I think that summerize the man.

I think you have an angelic view of this man who surely doesn't deserve it. Your apology of Benteen is very strange.


PS : "The Custer's attitude about loss of life". What are you talking about ? Elliott ? Check a little about W.a.s.h.i.t.a. Custer never abandon Elliott, he sent Myers with troops but they didn't find Elliott's men. Elliott disobeyed orders and has the responsability of 17 dead men.

[elisabeth]

Well ... Maybe I am a little too partial to the guy, just because he comes across so vividly! (You can hear his voice, can't you, growling and harrumphing away ...)

Granted, he lied through his teeth; granted, he hated ALMOST everybody (exceptions: he worshipped 'Tony' Forsyth, of Beecher's Island fame, and quite liked Keogh); but he was recognised by all as a good, tough-but-fair company commander, respected by his men. Granted, accounts of the fierceness of the fighting around the Benteen/Reno position differ (though many officers apart from those two had axes to grind, of course), but it's hard to imagine that they'd have gone without water for so long if the opposition was negligible; even Gray, having thoroughly torpedoed everything Reno and Benteen say about events up to the retreat from Weir Point, gives Benteen full credit for organising a soldierly and efficient defence from then on. (Incidentally, Gray gives 59, not 5, minutes for the pack-train's arrival at Reno Hill, though it does seem to have been dawdling a bit; maybe it could have moved up faster.) So I stick with my view that it was he who got so many men out alive. Whether he could have saved Custer's command -- who knows. The vehemence of his self-defence over the years suggests that, deep down, he's asked himself the same question; an agonising question for a man so convinced of his own rightness. Hence 'poor man' ...

Some of Benteen's actions that day are definitely culpable, but not all. Reno, by contrast, did virtually nothing right. (Not entirely his fault, he had no Indian-fighting experience at all; a poor choice for a first attack -- dictated only, one has to assume, by rank, for which Custer was such a stickler.) The whole thing was a mess, misjudgement crowding in upon misjudgement; there's no one culprit. That, I think, is why we all find it so fascinating; it's as if the gods had decided that hubris should be punished, and Custer's whole house of cards came tumbling in upon him. Tough on any one person to be blamed for the debacle -- but for me, it's Custer himself. The seeds of it are in his character, and you can see the powder-trail smouldering (forgive the mixed metaphor) from as far back as 1866 ...

[crzhrse]

Mr. Weir stated that the odds at the LBH were not as great as they were at Beecher's Island and the Wagon Box Fight, among others.

However, those battles were fought with soldiers in a fortified position and with the latest in rifles. Custer was in an undefendable position, unsuited to the cavalry. Reno/Benteen, were however, in a fortified position and were able to hold off the Indians. (I still think the Indians could have overrun the position if they really wanted to, albeit with heavy casualties)

Everything that could go wrong for the army at the LBH did: division of command in the face of an enemy of unknown size and unknown location, attacking in the afternoon during the summer, personality issues, poor lines of communication, and in the end, a foe not going to run and in a fighting mood ready to take on any enemy of any size.

[elisabeth]

Couldn't agree more.

[bigpond]

Weir,
when did the pack train aquire jets ?
just a little fact again for you,
Benteen arrived at Reno Hill 16.20
2 ammo mules arrive with tools 17.19
pack train arrived 17.25

[weir]

Sorry to shake your certitudes.

Well, again, I will give you testimonies, you will give me facts, and not the supporting testimonies or prooves to them.

B.F. Churchill (scout of the pack train) : "The pack train arrived a little while after Benteen's arrival on Reno Hill."
Martini (who was with Benteen's column) : "the pack train was behind not so far from Benteen's column".

But I think you are referring to Reno and Benteen's accounts ?

Do you think the honorable behavior of Benteen at the Reno and Benteen entranchments can forgive his behavior during June 25th ?

The fact he lied should be a first argument to show that he knew his behavior on June 25th could end his career. If Custer had been alive, Reno and Benteen would surely have been shot for treason.

Reno did nothing right, I agree. Benteen did nothing at all. What is the more unacceptable ?

The anihilation of the entire Custer's command was the result of Benteen's behavior. The fact the archeology showed that Custer deployed his men to wait for Benteen should be a wake-up argument for you ! Custer waited for this poor guy (in a way he really was...), adapted his strategy for him, and was abandonned. Did you know that Weir got upset two times before Benteen's arrival, while Benteen was riding instead of gallopping as Custer ordered him to do ? What do you think about that ?

After Little Bighorn, Reno and Benteen stayed on the Far West and let Weir lead the regiment back to Fort Lincoln. This two bastards gave Weir the dirty job to announce the death of 263 men to their families.. !

How could Benteen know the size of the village ? He knew nothing, except that his arrogant mind and his jealous behavior can let him wait while his brothers were fighting. He did the same at the Wanutsa with Barnitz. Check it out.

"Some of Benteen actions" ? He did nothing ! His honorable charge on Reno Hill was a consequence of what he let do on June 25th. He let Custer's battalion die !

Yes I'm grambling through the computer, because I'm so surprised that even those who know the battle can give credits to the biggest liar of the Little Bighorn.

If you do, how could the students of the battle have a right view of Little Bighorn ?

To crhrse : you are telling me that Benteen was right to leave Custer alone and take a good position on Reno Hill.

Do you know what the Custer's objective was ? Defend the ground ? No. Capture the village by multiple attacks. He could have done it. If he had been supported. Custer separated the regiment. Another strategy would have been ridiculous. Custer attacked ? Well, that what he should have done. Poor line of communication ? Reno sent two messengers to Custer, Custer probably one and another visual to Reno while he was engaged, and Custer gave two messengers to Benteen. And Custer placed 24 men on Weir Point for helping Benteen to find his way. Poor lines of communication ? Are you kidding ?
Yes that was an unknown location. That is what Custer wanted to attack on June 26th at dawn. But the company F lost box revealed him to the Indians. He had to attack.
Nelson Miles, who is the best Indian fighter ever, supported the Custer's decisions. He knew, him, what the Frontiers style of combat was. crhrse, your remarks let me think you don't.


Elizabeth you don't understand how could Benteen let 215 men die ? Check a little more on this guy. You will probably have another view of this man.

[weir]

bigpond said:

Weir,
when did the pack train aquire jets ?
just a little fact again for you,
Benteen arrived at Reno Hill 16.20
2 ammo mules arrive with tools 17.19
pack train arrived 17.25

Again : you don't agree with Martini and Churchill who were with the column and lt mathey who was on Reno Hill.

Sorry for you, but they were parts of the event. But congratulations to quote Benteen and Reno's reports. They were written exactly for that purpose.
Or funnier, are you quoting Mac Dougall at the Court of Inquiry ? He said he never received an order to move quickly despite kanipe ! That is a real good impartial testimony...

[bigpond]

Weir,
If Beenteen had carried out Custers orders to advance to the second valley on his left oblique he could have been at least 25 miles away.
How long would it have taken Martin to find him ?
As it was Benteen used his discretion after the 1st Bluff,and made back for the trail.
Remember Benteen was without doubt,overly qualified to be serving a troop commander in the 7th.His record speaks for itself.He understood the importance of chain of command,and obeyed orders especially in combat situations.On the arrival of Martin,and after reading the order,he passed it to Weir.Benteen then enquired of Martin what was hapening ahead,whatever was said it clearly lessened the urgency of Custers message.
"Martin had informed me the Indians were skedaddling.
Remember also at this point Weir made no comment.
It wasn't till they approached ford A,that they saw the hostiles were doing nothing of a kind,and that Martins story hadn't panned out.

[General Custer]

John Martin said to Benteen :

"I think Custer is charging the village."

Edgerly said :

"We were at two miles and a half when Benteen received Custer's orders."

Benteen should have been killed in front of a wall for great treason.

But perhaps bigbond could explain me why Benteen showed a false map in the Reno Court of Inquiry ?

[custerstillstands]

Other events in the life of BENTEEN THE LIAR :

he said that he was repulsed from Weir Point.

But everybody around him said that the troops made a retreat without having contact with the ennemy...

[custerstillstands]

some numbers about the battle on June 25th 1876, 14h55-18h15 :

Custer fought during 86 % of the battle, with 36 % of the 7th cavalry.

Reno fought during 24 % of the battle, with 22% of the 7th cavalry.

Benteen fought 0 % of the battle with 42 % of the 7th cavalry

If anyone see something bizarre, let tell me...