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Benteen
Mar 12, 2005 10:31:36 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 12, 2005 10:31:36 GMT -6
Absurd. Custer refused to come back to bury the slow soldiers of his column who were ambushed by Indians. If Custer had buried them, he would have been entirely whiped out by Indians who were chasing his command. Xav,take your tunnel vision glasses off,and answer the question properly ! There are people on this board willing to learn,including me !
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Benteen
Mar 12, 2005 10:52:05 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 12, 2005 10:52:05 GMT -6
Elizabeth1. Custer shot deserters ? He was a member of the american army, and the punishment of desertion in the american army was death. I suppose you think Stonewall Jackson, Lee, Grant, Meade, Stuart, Sherman, Mac Pherson, Longstreet, Ewell, Hill... were guilty of bad consideration of life because they ordered to kill deserters ? Then if the above is correct Sir,Custer should have faced the firing squad for desertion ! Not only for desertion,but also for the loss of life which two of his guard suffered at the hands of Indians. He didn't even have the decency to bury them ! This is the original question ! May I remind you why the question was asked. Hancock ordered Custer on a long scout with specific orders to do certain things,but Custer's inveterate tendency to do as he pleased in the absence of his superior officer,was arrested and faced a Court martial for absenting himself without leave from his command. Marching a portion of his command as an escort for himself on private business without authority:damaging the horses by over marching:abandoning two soldiers who were killed by Indians:failing to pursue the Indians:or the recovery of the said soldiers. Ordering a party in pursuit of deserters,to shoot them and bring none in alive:whereby 3 were shot,one dying: hauled 15 miles without medical attention. This was asked after your reply to Elizabeth
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Benteen
Mar 12, 2005 11:33:49 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 12, 2005 11:33:49 GMT -6
May I remind you why the question was asked. Hancock ordered Custer on a long scout with specific orders to do certain things,but Custer's inveterate tendency to do as he pleased in the absence of his superior officer that's for the "inveterate tendancy", thank you for giving your personal judgement but if you can support it, it would be better... Custer had, from orders of the high command (Sherman), the total liberty of action to fight the Indians. He could decide. Later this fake court martial didn't even mentioned those orders, and objected when Custer's defense presented them. was arrested and faced a Court martial for absenting himself without leave from his command. Marching a portion of his command as an escort for himself on private business without authority
"Private business"... No, he was looking for supplies to his famished command at Fort Wallace. A cholera epidemy was doing his job. Custer took a squadron and rode for help. He asked the permission to do it and received it from Colonel Smith. Smith agreed with Custer, but later changed his version when the army made pressure on his head. damaging the horses by over marching No kidding? Custer's command was chased by Indians, do you think he could make a halt for resting ? Benteen is the only one, in the military records, to make halts when the situation is critical... Custer rode 280 kilometers in 55 hours. During the Civil War, at the Peninsula Campaign, Gen Stuart rode 180 kilometers in 24 hours. Nobody said to him that he had damaged the horses, everybody knew he was behind the ennemy lines, as Custer was in 1867.... abandoning two soldiers who were killed by Indians:failing to pursue the Indians or the recovery of the said soldiers.
As I already wrote, Custer's command was too small to fight the Indians chasers. Would Custer have fought, he would probably have been killed with all his men, and you will blame him for that now. And why Custer didn't halt to save his slow soldiers who were ambushed by Indians ? Because he didn't want to be ambushed too ! Ordering a party in pursuit of deserters,to shoot them and bring none in alive:whereby 3 were shot,one dying: hauled 15 miles without medical attention.
To pursue deserters ? That's usual in the army, even today... To shoot some of them ? That was the orders at that time, check the civil war about deserters. This is the real story : 40 (!) deserters attempted to flee, and Custer sent Elliott to pursue them. 37 surrendered, but three, the leaders of the group, refused and aimed. A fight occured, and Elliott killed them. That was self-defence. Nobody in the regiment was scandalized by this event, except, of course, Benteen.. always... 15 miles ? You mean Custer refused to gave them medical attention for one hour. That was an example to the rest of the regiment. But after that he let the doctor do his job. He was supposed to kill them all, and if he would have done it, the court martial wouldn't have found any arguments in the military code to contradict his behavior. However, Elliot killed those who fired at him, and let the rest alive, and Custer went on trial... This Court martial is a perfect beginning to study the future Renos Court of Inquiry. Both are biaised, and this is really evident.
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Benteen
Mar 12, 2005 12:13:59 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 12, 2005 12:13:59 GMT -6
Buggnkat Check out The Reno's behavior during the first step of the battle, 15h15-15h55. Here is a little summarize : 1. Reno halted 2.2 miles from the village. The reason of so far ? Who knows ? When the battalion charged, "there was no opposition" (Dr Porter). 2. Reno deployed his men in a standard skirmish line, but he put the Arikaras scouts on the left flank. Why did Reno deploy non-combatants (Custer let his scouts go from Weir Point, they weren't obliged to fight) on his flank, the crucial part of the line ? Who knows ? Reno had to retreat. Until then, he had lost 2 men. 15 minutes of fighting in skirmish line, maybe the fastest retreat of the history of the Indians Wars. 3. Reno deployed his men in the woods, ordered to fire 4 volleys, was shocked by Bloody Knife's death. He said "Mount", dismount", mount" ! And he fled. Alone .Without giving an order of retreat (instead he said "charge", and confused his men). He didn't even tell the bugler to inform the men, who saw their comrades fleeing wihtout knowing what was going on. Reno fled the first. He didn't organize a rear guard. He lost 48 men in this rout, and 19 wounded. Half his battalion. In 25 minutes. In 40 minutes, Reno had just shown how he was a bad, really bad, incresingly unadapted for the Indians Wars, commander. This little summarize can show you, like the Benteen's behavior I explained in others posts, how the Indians were greatly helped by Reno and Benteen. Others subodinates, and the battle would have been a victory. Custer, according to Urwinn (Custer's victorious) , was not a strategist, but a great improviser. He still proved this reputation at the Little Bighorn. But a good improviser depends on good subordinates. And they were not at all. The "love" felt for Custer by the men under his command is well documented. How his soldiers reacted and acted that day reflected it. The men admired Custer, and he was appreciated. Yes it is great documentation about that , despite the irony you suppose, check the letters of the soldiers and the reactions after the Custer's death... Mac Clernand, of Terry's column, wrote in his personal paper at the end of May 1876 : "Actually Custer fill in entusiasm the majority of the people of the army. Many are fascinated by his famous reputation, even those who don't know him." A private of the 7th (didn't remember the name, I will add it later) wrote in a personal letter : "when the Indians killed Custer, they stole the heart of the regiment. Soldiers are not used to cry, but I saw many who dried their tears with their handles when we buried Custer." The Crow scouts cried, that is very unsual for Indians. Custer's ordonance Burkmam settled in Billings, not far from LBH, and died with for sole fortune two pounds of 1839 and 1876, the birth and death of Custer. The doctor Porter and a sergeant cut each a wick of the Custer's short faired buckles. Crow scout Curley named his son George in Custer's memory. I know it is difficult to admit if you don't like Custer or you are upset by his charisma. Even Indians : Kate BigHead, Cheyenne woman : "During 60 years I worried to know if I had perhaps dirty his body while I rode between the corpses." "Cheyenne women talked about him as an handsome man." Fire Bird, Cheyenne : "Long Hair came in our lodges and told us about his civil war battles with excitation. For that time we had had a great admiration for this man". I know plenty others like that.. Yes, he was liked. Reno and Benteen were not, and have never been, the good way to check what the soldiers thought about Custer.
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Benteen
Mar 12, 2005 13:05:53 GMT -6
Post by custerstillstands on Mar 12, 2005 13:05:53 GMT -6
"Sorry, I'll pass on this survey. The parameters are set up completely wrong. We are assuming Benteen "waited," when it could have been the result of tired, thirsty horses and an equally exhausted pack train."
Boston Custer's horse was better that Benteen's horse ? Because one man can travel several miles to meet his brother, and a captain with a lot of companies can do the same thing but with 30 minutes of delay and horses in trot ?
"The "love" felt for Custer by the men under his command is well documented. How his soldiers reacted and acted that day reflected it." It depends the man you ask. Benteen said that the men hated Custer. But David Spotts, of 19th Kansas regiment, wrote after the Battle of the Washita :
"All Custer's soldiers love him. I heard only positive things about him."
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Benteen
Mar 12, 2005 18:23:59 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 12, 2005 18:23:59 GMT -6
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Benteen
Mar 12, 2005 22:22:54 GMT -6
Post by Buggnkat on Mar 12, 2005 22:22:54 GMT -6
I was merely pointing out that within Custers own command things were divided. Some did love him and others hated him, depending on which side of the Custer line you stood.
Custer was NOT widely loved within the 7th. This is a fact. His nicknames will attest to this, IE Old Iron Bottom. Not a term of endearment ffrom my readings and studies.
I am not defending Benteen either. His duplicity of failing to report when ordered is well documented. No matter how you slice it he didnt make a concerted effort to return his companies to the regiment in a hasty fashion.
As for Reno's not being in total control have any of you been in combat? Have you witnessed first hand someones brains being seperated from his skull? He was a combat veteran that is proven, but at what point will a man break? How much combat is too much? Fault him for the failed valley attack is pure arm chair generalship I detest.
Benteen hated Custer from the day he left a fellow officer and a squad of soliders in the field with whereabouts unkown. As a former soldier, that is a mistake that will tarnish your stellar command and lose all command structure from then on. The soldiers will ask themselves (secretly or not) "Will the Glory Hound leave me behind also?" Do you think any of the troopers not squarely behind Custer would have given him an inch? I doubt it.
The 7th had one of the highest desertion rates of the frontier cavalry units. I read this but can not credit the fact to a certain author but will try to find the reference.
As for Custer himself I am neither hot nor cold. He is a man that violated one of the most important rules of warfare, know thy enemy and never underestimate your enemy. For that he paid the ultimate price.
Do not undersetimate the enemies of your vaunted Custer. For teh first time in the 7ths history the enemy stood and fought and were met head to head with the worlds finest light cavalry and were defeated. Failure of of her commnders from regiment down to company resulted in her being almost wiped out that day.
Custer must, as the field commander, bear the fault. He was helped by Benteen not bringing the packs and the rest of the companies up quick enough. Renos failure to reassemble and remount his troops for an effective charge in the valley must also share in the defeat.
At the company level the officers tried but circumstances were already stacked against them.
Greg Lee
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 5:14:39 GMT -6
Post by custerstillstands on Mar 13, 2005 5:14:39 GMT -6
"As for Custer himself I am neither hot nor cold. He is a man that violated one of the most important rules of warfare, know thy enemy and never underestimate your enemy. For that he paid the ultimate price."
No. He was fighting Indians, are the number of Indians were always unknown and it was always less soldiers than Indians.
Wagon Box battle : 75 Indians for on soldier. Beecher's Island battle : 19 Indians for one soldier.
Indians were not Confederates, or regular army. If Benteen would have been quick, Custer would have won
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 5:21:22 GMT -6
Post by Don Blake on Mar 13, 2005 5:21:22 GMT -6
The Crow scouts cried... Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiightttt.... How unlike those pesky stoical redskins, uh?
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 6:17:35 GMT -6
Post by custerstillstands on Mar 13, 2005 6:17:35 GMT -6
The Crow scouts cried... Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiightttt.... How unlike those pesky stoical redskins, uh? Indians don't usually cry. That's not a pejorative observation, but men thought that was bad for their virility. The virility was a central concern in the Indians manners.
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 9:43:25 GMT -6
Post by Buggnkat on Mar 13, 2005 9:43:25 GMT -6
[quote author=Custerstillstands link=board=Queries&thread=1109786099&start=38#2 date=1110712479 No. He was fighting Indians, are the number of Indians were always unknown and it was always less soldiers than Indians.
Wagon Box battle : 75 Indians for on soldier. Beecher's Island battle : 19 Indians for one soldier.
Indians were not Confederates, or regular army. If Benteen would have been quick, Custer would have won[/quote]
Unknown?! not by much. Reprots from various agencies put the number of indians in the field at around 3000. Albeit EXACT numbers would have been tough to come by but knowing what your up against in numbers is basic soldier skills. It is called reconning the objective.
The second part of your statement is you POV (Poin Of View). Would another 200 plus troopers made a difference that June day? Probably not. The Indians changed THEIR tactics. They were attacking the Cavalry, not the other way around.
They froze Custers column in its tracks then mythodicaly ripped it to shreds.
No way would the troopers have made anything but a morale appearance which at that time was pretty much all they could have done for Custers command. They had dismounted, and started shooting their horses for breastworks. That is not something the Cavalry does as a standard operating procedure when engaging hostiles. It is a last ditch effort to stem an attack.
The Cavalry lost that battle the minute their feet hit the ground.
The report latter by some Indians that survived was "The battle lasted as long as it takes a hungry man to eat his lunch".
Greg Lee
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 12:37:04 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 13, 2005 12:37:04 GMT -6
Did you know the name of the general who conducted the court martial, who gathered the prooves and chose the members of the jury ? General H.ancock What a coincidence ! ;D
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 12:43:00 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 13, 2005 12:43:00 GMT -6
The report latter by some Indians that survived was "The battle lasted as long as it takes a hungry man to eat his lunch". Greg Lee Acording to Indians the battle was easy (Two Moons), one hour long and so many soldiers shot themselves that the Indians stopped fighting and looked at the soldiers commiting suicide (Kate Bighead). Sure. I think Don Balke will write it is pejorative to say that Indians always exaggerated their own battle story to give them importance, but that was the case. The fact that they tried to hide their losses, very high, is a proof.
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 15:34:17 GMT -6
Post by Tricia on Mar 13, 2005 15:34:17 GMT -6
Benteen stopped once. 15 minutes, horses and men rested. He received an oral message of Kanipe which urged him to come quick. Benteen made a second halt. 15 minutes more. Without logical reason. Finally, Weir became upset and ordered to his company to move on, so he obliged Benteen to move. By trot, despite orders. This first insubordination of Weir, as the second on Reno Hill, proves if it is necessary that the Benteen's behavior was voluntarily to wait. He did already that at the W.A.S.H.I.T.A and will do the same later, after the Little Big Horn. So the survey is including this fact. You can see that all people which voted accepted this fact as true. Well considering only 5 people have voted in this poll ... a "poll" is only as effective as the questioner. Inherent biases will skew the results--as does your rather severe interpretation regarding ol' Fred ... Your Obedient Servant, Leyton McLean
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Benteen
Mar 13, 2005 16:25:23 GMT -6
Post by Don Blake on Mar 13, 2005 16:25:23 GMT -6
Only in movies...
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