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Benteen
Mar 14, 2005 6:00:27 GMT -6
Post by Rabble on Mar 14, 2005 6:00:27 GMT -6
Hancock did not "conduct" the Court Martial, in fact he was not even a member. BTW Courts Martial do not have juries either.
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Benteen
Mar 14, 2005 6:11:58 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 14, 2005 6:11:58 GMT -6
Hancock did not "conduct" the Court Martial, in fact he was not even a member. BTW Courts Martial do not have juries either. Rabble,of course you are correct Sir. But hey why let the facts spoil a good story from Xav To be honest I dont know if major Elliot,was or wasn't assigned by Custer to chase the deserters,but wouldn't that be ironic Xav !
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Benteen
Mar 14, 2005 12:13:50 GMT -6
Post by crzhrse on Mar 14, 2005 12:13:50 GMT -6
RE: INDIANS DON'T CRY
Quite a bigoted, if not racist, point of view. Apparently you have not heard about the Crow Scouts who, when telling Lt. Bradley about Custer's defeat, were weeping uncontrollably and mourning for the dead.
Most native Americans were a highly emotional and passionate people. They may not have always shown that side to whites, but they had feelings and cried when deaths occurred.
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Benteen
Mar 14, 2005 18:18:15 GMT -6
Post by Rabble on Mar 14, 2005 18:18:15 GMT -6
Rabble,of course you are correct Sir. But hey why let the facts spoil a good story from Xav To be honest I dont know if major Elliot,was or wasn't assigned by Custer to chase the deserters,but wouldn't that be ironic Xav ! According to Tom Custer at the Court Martial, Major Elliott, Lt Cooke and he, plus a scout named Atkins, pursued the deserters.
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Benteen
Mar 14, 2005 18:58:33 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 14, 2005 18:58:33 GMT -6
Rabble, Thank you Sir
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Benteen
Mar 17, 2005 9:42:40 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 17, 2005 9:42:40 GMT -6
RE: INDIANS DON'T CRY Quite a bigoted, if not racist, point of view. Apparently you have not heard about the Crow Scouts who, when telling Lt. Bradley about Custer's defeat, were weeping uncontrollably and mourning for the dead. Most native Americans were a highly emotional and passionate people. They may not have always shown that side to whites, but they had feelings and cried when deaths occurred. If you had read what I wrote before, I wrote that Crow scouts wept when they learnt Custer was killed but that was not very usual for warriors. It was not usual in soldiers ranks too, as private Dewsey wrote : "when the Indians killed Custer, they stole the heart of the regiment. It was not usual for a soldier to cry [...]" Doens't mean they were not emotional or passionate. It was a hard time. Please check all the posts before writing remarks.
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Benteen
Mar 17, 2005 9:53:39 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 17, 2005 9:53:39 GMT -6
A remark just for you Big Pond, the trusting man of the american justice of Custer court martial and Reno's Court of Inquiry :
The Pack train arrived on Reno Hill at the time Reno was routed, and reached the rest of the battalion at the same time as Benteen did.
Because Big Pond LOVES justice, I will give him my prooves :
Soldiers side : Testimonies of - Martin with Benteen: "When I was with Benteen's column, the pack train was not far behind." - Godfrey with Benteen : "The pack train reached us when we began to left our second halt [lone teepee]. - Churchill, scout of the pack train : "the pack train arrived on the hill very quickly." - Sergeant Davern with Reno : "A short while after I went to the hill, the pack train arrived." - Lt Hare : "The pack train arrived quickly." (Quoted in Nightengale, Little Bighorn FW Publishing, 1996)
Indians side : Testimonies of - Red Feather : "I chased 10 soldiers on a hill [Reno Hill]and a saw more troops coming with pack mules". - Others testimonies of One Bull, Flying Hawk and Fears Nothing. (Quoted in Michno, Lakota Noon).
I have nine witnesses to support my theory. I'm waiting, Big Pond, for the prooves of the contrary. If you have.
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Benteen
Mar 17, 2005 10:15:04 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 17, 2005 10:15:04 GMT -6
They had dismounted, and started shooting their horses for breastworks. That is not something the Cavalry does as a standard operating procedure when engaging hostiles. It is a last ditch effort to stem an attack. The Cavalry lost that battle the minute their feet hit the ground. The report latter by some Indians that survived was "The battle lasted as long as it takes a hungry man to eat his lunch". Greg Lee The Indians were about 6'000 civilians and 1'500 warriors. Custer predicted this number. he never under estimated the number of ennemies he faced. In a ratio of 2 to 1, the situation was normal, for an experienced soldier in the Indians wars. What Custer didn't realize, is that he would in fact engaged the ennemy during 2 hours alone with 1/3 of his regiment. Why ? We really wonder... Even Red Horse admitted : "when we left the soldiers of the hill [Reno Hill], we worried that they could fight us from the rear." (Lakota Noon)
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Benteen
Mar 17, 2005 16:30:38 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 17, 2005 16:30:38 GMT -6
I like it,the "Sheriff who loves Justice" ;D
Indians side : Testimonies of - Red Feather : "I chased 10 soldiers on a hill [Reno Hill]and a saw more troops coming with pack mules". - Others testimonies of One Bull, Flying Hawk and Fears Nothing. (Quoted in Michno, Lakota Noon).
They did say that,but as Michno also states P106,It appears they witnessed the arrival of the advanced elements of Benteens companies,D,H and K.The pack train under McDougal would not be up for a hour or more ! This ties in within the time limits.
page 291 "The Custer Myth" W.A.Graham - Martin with Benteen: "When I was with Benteen's column, the pack train was not far behind." then, It was insight maybe a mile away,this was not said on Reno Hill,this was just after he was given another horse,because his own was shot,before he met benteen. Martin then goes on to the Weir incident on Reno Hill,where he took off with his troop. Then he goes on to say"the rest of us stayed there untill the packs all arrived.The ammunition mules came first,in about 15 minutes,but it was more than an hour before the last pack-mule was up.
Godfrey with Benteen : "The pack train reached us when we began to left our second halt [lone teepee]. pages 139,141,142. "The Custer Myth"W.A.Graham "We were now several miles from the Reno Battlefield or the LBH.Just as we were leaving the water hole,the pack train was arriving" and then they passed the Lone Tepee. This is when Benteen is starting his left oblique,Reno hasn't even been told to attack yet !
I would assume Nightingale would use some Graham's work for his book.
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Benteen
Mar 17, 2005 17:23:17 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 17, 2005 17:23:17 GMT -6
The Indians were about 6'000 civilians and 1'500 warriors. Custer predicted this number. he never under estimated the number of ennemies he faced. In a ratio of 2 to 1, the situation was normal, for an experienced soldier in the Indians wars. What Custer didn't realize, is that he would in fact engaged the ennemy during 2 hours alone with 1/3 of his regiment. Why ? We really wonder... it was his choice,being in charge Xav, I havn't a axe to grind either way,but lets get realistic. Nobody,not even the Indians,knew how many were in the village,except to say it was large,and there was quite a number. If Custer knew[it had to be a guess]one would have to assume that he did under estimate the Sioux/Cheyenne. The 2/1 ratio is ridiculous,I would think the Indians would certainly want a far larger ratio. So what you are saying with these odds,The Fetterman Fight was fought by 80 whites & roughly 160 Sioux In the ten years Custer was involved with the 7th,he led them at the W.A.S.H.T.A[enough said]in 1873 he was in the yellowstone expedition,under Stanley,and was in involved in a couple of skirmishes[during this trip he even got himself in trouble for disobedience of orders ,and was put in arrest by Stanley,who would brook no insubordinations] So apart from the above,name me Custers great wins against any hostiles.to give him the title Indian Fighter ! Custer 's odds against could have been 10/1 I would tender a guess say the battle didn't rely start till calhoun Hill,form there on in it was a buffalo chase. His problem was,he could attack,but couldn't defend.I suspect he didn't know how too.
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Benteen
Mar 17, 2005 20:21:35 GMT -6
Post by Buggnkat on Mar 17, 2005 20:21:35 GMT -6
Underestimating your enemy isn’t just numbers, it is: 1) His fighting spirit. Even a group outnumbered who has faith in its leadership can overcome this adversity. History is full of examples of outnumbered units turning the tide of battle and winning.
2) His abilities to sustain a fight. Can your enemy resist your attack, and possibly counter. Does he contain the where with all, arms and munitions to successfully sustain or take the fight to you?
3) Will. Is your enemy ready to stand and fight? Is he confident in his abilities? By demonstrated courage and will he can rally the fighters of his unit to raise their standard and level of resistance.
To understand what happened you must stop thinking in terms of numbers. Numbers only give confidence and sometimes over confidence. Skill and abilities cant and don’t always win on the field.
Custer and his command didn’t think the Indians would stand and fight. They did. The Cavalry is an OFFENSIVE weapon. They know nothing else. For a Trooper to dismount meant the battle he is losing his greatest asset, speed and agility while trading it in for security behind a dead mount.
The Indians were bolstered with the battle at the Rosebud. When Reno rode into the valley they were fully confident they could defeat the troopers again. When the charge was blunted and then routed, their courage and war spirit were on a high no doubt. Then to engage a second column and defeat it also put them almost in the invincible mode. I would not to have been on that ridge that night. Whether or not they knew whom they defeated is immaterial. They knew they had a major victory that day. Ultimately it would speed their demise.
Numbers do not guarantee anything. Will to win at all costs, the willingness to sacrifice EVERYTHING for the victory will sway the numbers.
Greg Lee
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Benteen
Mar 18, 2005 15:17:19 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 18, 2005 15:17:19 GMT -6
Big pondI havn't a axe to grind either way,but lets get realistic. Nobody,not even the Indians,knew how many were in the village,except to say it was large,and there was quite a number.
Michno and Fox and Gray, the most experienced historians of LBh found those numbers of about 1'500-2'000 warriors and 6'000-7'000 civilians. It is the number accepted by the National Park service if you look on the battlefield today. So, no, that's not ridiculous. it is based on Indians own numbers. So what you are saying with these odds,The Fetterman Fight was fought by 80 whites & roughly 160 Sioux
Fetterman was ambushed by about 200 Indians warriors. The majority of his men were on foot, and they were surprised. Custer had the opportunity to deploy his men in a good order. Look in Lakota Noon, the Indians always talk about "hard fight" and "soldiers in line". Custer's soldiers and Indians fought during 3 hours, and the indians testimonies shwo a hard fight, with many losses on each side. Even when Fetterman was ambushed and surprised his men were able to kill 60 warriors. Conclusion of archeologist Fox : "Custer with the entire regiment of 650 men could have won this fair fight". But Custer alone, waiting for Benteen and this coward of Reno, in a ratio of 7 to 1, had no chance. Look at the moves of the Custer's batallion : Keogh fought as a rear guard to permit to Custer to scout the fords for a future attack. Custer deploy his men to gain time for the reinforcements to come. But they never did. during this trip he even got himself in trouble for disobedience of orders ,and was put in arrest by Stanley,who would brook no insubordinations] So apart from the above,name me Custers great wins against any hostiles.to give him the title Indian Fighter !Stanley accused Custer to have taken a horse without orders. But Stanley was drunk the day he said that and was obliged by his superiors to give public apologies to Custer for his behavior. I never said Custer was the most experienced Indian fighter. A that time it was Crook, but when we see Crook's behavior at the Rosebud, when he repulsed Crazy Horse but went back, giving the victory to the Indians, it lets me wonder who was the better Indians fighter in 1876. Terry wrote that Custer was, that's the reason he gave him no precised orders in LBh. The 7th was the elite. Custer was not the most experienced Indian fighter but he was certainly (but you will say the contrary) one of the best. I would tender a guess say the battle didn't rely start till calhoun Hill,form there on in it was a buffalo chase. His problem was,he could attack,but couldn't defend.I suspect he didn't know how too.The Indians said the contrary. If you check Michno, you could see that the Indians doubted very often of the victory. Red Feather thought that the Indians could never been able to win the battle when Reno's men entranched in the timber. Red Horse said The Sioux lost 136 dead and 160 wounded for the sole Calhoun Hill fight. White Bull testified that the Reno skirmish line cost a lot of Indians lives. Two Moon said the Calhoun fight "had already cost a lot of Cheyennes lives and the battle wasn't over". Kate Bighead lost two nephews, Wooden Leg one brother, Crow King two bothers, Turle Rib one brother, Moving Robe one nephew, Feather Earring one brother. Maybe the hundreds of Indians ( I estime about 250)who were killed don't agree with your point of view about the 7th defense ability. TEXT
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Benteen
Mar 18, 2005 15:42:18 GMT -6
Post by weir on Mar 18, 2005 15:42:18 GMT -6
I like it,the "Sheriff who loves Justice" ;D
Maybe we have all our West reincarnation !
They did say that,but as Michno also states P106,It appears they witnessed the arrival of the advanced elements of Benteens companies,D,H and K.The pack train under McDougal would not be up for a hour or more ! This ties in within the time limits
I surely have read Michno's remarks. Michno want us to believe that an Indian can confused a mule with a horse. That's what a call "take the Indians for stupid people". They were not at all. One testimony could be wrong, but four of Indians, and six of soldiers, that are prooves, difficult to refuse. The time limits are included, Red Feather chased Reno's troops routed, like Fears Nothing, American Horse (just found it), One Bull and Flying Hawk. After that they were fighting Custer's battalion. They know what they saw.
page 291 "The Custer Myth" W.A.Graham - Martin with Benteen: "When I was with Benteen's column, the pack train was not far behind." then, It was insight maybe a mile away,this was not said on Reno Hill,this was just after he was given another horse,because his own was shot,before he met benteen. Martin then goes on to the Weir incident on Reno Hill,where he took off with his troop. Then he goes on to say"the rest of us stayed there untill the packs all arrived.The ammunition mules came first,in about 15 minutes,but it was more than an hour before the last pack-mule was up.
The first and the last mule were riding one hour of distance ? Are you kidding ? I'm sure this testimony was given at the Court of Inquiry, after Martini was good prepared by Reno's advocate Gilbert. Gerard said : "Every witness was supervised by the defense before giving testimony."
pages 139,141,142. "The Custer Myth"W.A.Graham "We were now several miles from the Reno Battlefield or the LBH.Just as we were leaving the water hole,the pack train was arriving" and then they passed the Lone Tepee. This is when Benteen is starting his left oblique,Reno hasn't even been told to attack yet !
No, of course no. Benteen is already on the Custer's trail. That is Benteen's second halt. He stopped at the lon teepee. Reno is engaged, and Custer will soon be either. Churchill, scout of the pack train, sent by Mac Dougall for scouting the field after Custer gave orders for the pack train to move quickly (Kanipe), saw and testified the Benteen's halt. Godfrey testified either the first time Weir disobeyed orders. Weir became upset of seeing Benteen waiting for no reason and Weir ordered his company (D) to move on without orders. Angry, Benteen gave up and move on. It was his second halt. 30 minutes lost.
Big Pond, I saw that you volunterily "forgot" to comment the sergeant Davern's testimony. Davern was with Reno, he had fled the timber, crossed the river and arriving on Reno Hill, he saw the pack train arriving. Indians testified the same. You didn't give comments on this testimony, disturbing for you. That's not fair, Big Pond. Especially for a justice lover ! ;D Answer pro-per-ly ! ;D
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Benteen
Mar 18, 2005 17:11:38 GMT -6
Post by custerstillstands on Mar 18, 2005 17:11:38 GMT -6
Hancock did not "conduct" the Court Martial, in fact he was not even a member. BTW Courts Martial do not have juries either. yes, yes... Like Sheridan didn't rule the Reno Court of Inquiry, but Wesley Merritt, his protégé, was the man who create the Court. Nearly all the members of Custer Court Martial were under Hancock's command.
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Benteen
Mar 18, 2005 18:43:46 GMT -6
Post by bigpond on Mar 18, 2005 18:43:46 GMT -6
Xav, If I were to have a choice back then,I would be a hostile. And I would scour that battlefield with my scalping knife till I found my prey.He comes from Verona ;D
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