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Post by Tricia on Apr 23, 2006 13:55:47 GMT -6
This is in no manner an attempt to demean Sir Cecil, but when I saw the date of The Law Marches West[/b] as 1939, we are suddenly confronted by one of the problems that so confounds Custeriana: how long can the memory prevail when it comes to the veracity of the narrative? If the tale happened exactly as related, a note must have accompanied that watch and certainly Libbie would have recorded such an important event in her journal. Are there extant examples of either? Did Denny offer any description of the timepiece other than a generic description, or was it simply "purported" to be once owned by GAC? Did he clearly state there was an engraving upon it? Or are you simply supposing it did? And if so, did you receive this kind of evidence--even if xeroxed--via the dealer from whom you purchased your "Custer" watch? All of this stuff would go--and this is the mantra of this thread--towards establishing the Elgin's provenance--and its worth.
I think GAC and James have--long ago--spoken the truth when it comes to your find. And I have to agree with them. Though its been enjoyable to see how ownership of the watch has spurred you on to do reseach on Custer, I think you need to realise that until you come up with hard and fast evidence over your ever more threadbare suppositions, it's not Custer's timepiece--nor was it ever. Believe me, we'd love to see it the other way!
Still, I've seen some Elgin watches with your patent date go for about $400.00 (USD).
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 23, 2006 14:23:29 GMT -6
I figure all of the Custer Family watches recovered must have had some sort of inscription relating to who owned them.
Gary
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Post by Tricia on Apr 23, 2006 14:33:41 GMT -6
Gary--
Unfortunately, you can figure until you're blue in the head. Nor am I saying that you are wrong to do so. However, we need evidence to back your assumptions.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 23, 2006 15:21:06 GMT -6
Nope, I don't need to produce any evidence as to what my thoughts are! I would say there is quite a lot of documentation as to there being (3) Custer watches out there! Do you have any "documentation" to show otherwise?
Gary
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Post by Tricia on Apr 23, 2006 16:56:46 GMT -6
Gary--
As has been stated over and over again, it is up to you to provide fast evidence that the watch you own belonged to GAC. There have been several good points made by people more knowledgeable than I when it comes to collecting antiquities, points that, unfortunately, skillfully, and successfully negate your claim to the otherwise. Let's put it this way. When you brought the Custer timepiece to Sotheby's, despite your desire to keep the thing, did they offer to handle (i.e, sell) it for you? Did they toss out a ballpark price they thought they could garner? These would all be important clues as to your Elgin's true provenance. My family has sold items through that firm, granted, almost twenty years ago, but if the staff of Sotheby's knows they can get something with a remarkable and unusual provenance, they can be very persuasive because their cut can be quite lucrative.
And when it comes to the number of "Custer watches" out there, get Glenwood Swanson's book and look at the section on the items GAC received over the course of his life. From guns to swords, the man accumulated presentation pieces from all around. I wouldn't be surprised to see there were MORE than three watches tossed his and Libbie's way. But as much as I would love to believe to the contrary, I'm still afraid yours isn't one of them. You seemed accepting of that fact Friday; what changed?
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 23, 2006 18:17:39 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply! I do figure my watch is old "bad news" even I would rather not talk about it anymore! I am truly interested in, where are these Custer watches, that have been mentioned in books and newspapers. They are surly out there somewhere! No one would throw them away! I also know that their whereabouts is very unlikely to surface on this forum, but it is fun to toss it around. I am also very aware that people liked to give General Custer things and am surprised that there are not all that many of those prizes around. I suspect that he had all kinds of watches.
Thanks,,,,,,,Gary
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Post by Jas. Watson on Apr 28, 2006 15:00:51 GMT -6
I hate to revive this thread, but take a look at the "Custer's Chair" thread in the 'Other Media' section of this forum. There you will see the sort of thing that GAC and I and others were talking about. There is much more data given on the object's 'pedigree' than about the object itself. I mean standing alone it's just another old folding chair--hell, I have one like it myself...but coming from where it is; well, that makes it a different story. So it's the 'story' (provanance) that you're buying, so it's the 'story' that gets the examination and the kudos. And as GAC said; notice the price.
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Post by ponysoldier on Aug 28, 2022 19:49:26 GMT -6
From a website visitor: I just saw your posting back in January 2005 about the Custer pocket watch being in the Gene Autry Museum. It was made for the Errol Flynn movie They Died With Their Boots On. It is the one that the Foote family had!
There are at least three other watches in existence with the same inscription. All but the one I have were proven to be "Not Authentic."
I have spent many years now trying to document my watch and have not been able to find any record of a watch being presented to Custer. If you know of any documentation I would much appreciate the information!!! There is documentation that a Canadian Mountie (Cecil Denny) collected the pocket watch from Sitting Bull and sent it to Libbie, I think in 1877 or 78.
My watch has several minute engravings on the inside that tell the history of Custer and the swords are shown inverted as Custer and Sheridan both preferred. Because they were Cavalry, fighting from horseback, they thought it more proper to show swords as having the tip pointed down. Does anyone have any additional information that might help him authenticate his pocket watch?
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Post by ponysoldier on Aug 28, 2022 20:16:19 GMT -6
“Because they were Cavalry, fighting from horseback, they thought it more proper to show swords as having the tip pointed down.[/blockquote]
Does anyone have any additional information that might help him authenticate his pocket watch?[/quote] ”
I realize this is an old thread, but I only just discovered it. As a US Cavalryman, wearing the official insignia (crossed sabers pointing up), of that branch for 32 years, I have to say I’ve run into this quite often among civilians, or at least among those who’ve never served on the IUS Army. Civilians, such as the sculptor mentioned, seem to always get it wrong when left to their own designs.
That’s #1, #2 is that no self-respecting cavalryman would EVER wear his sabers point down; it implies submission – and to say that Custer and Sheridan liked it that way is ludicrous. Someone sold the author of this thread a fake watch – obviously made by someone who didn’t know what they were doing.
That said, cavalrymen in a saber charge would have their blades pointed slightly down if facing infantrymen (En Terse, from Cook’s manual) but facing oncoming cavalrymen, the crux of their existence, the blade would be pointed slightly up – or En Quatro – from the same manual. If you’re facing an oncoming saber charge and your blade is down, there’s no way you can defend yourself.
Off Topic, but as an FYI: Both terms are stolen from the French Cavalry Manual originally translated by General Poinsette (yes, the flower is named for him) when the US Cav was a new branch, then later revised in “Cook’s Cavalry Tactics” around 1862. It was Cook’s manual and Sheridan’s bullheadedness that brought about the change in the US Cavalry in the summer of 1863 that gave the results at Brandy Station and Gettysburg – but I digress.
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