Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 19, 2006 15:31:19 GMT -6
By the way, talking about requests, I asked for your input as to where one can find the references that you had referred to on Goggle that identified C.L. Theiry, the watch case maker, as having used the Eagle and Indian as part of his "hallmark" on other watches. I would really like to have this information for my files. Thanks,,,,,,, Gary I'm guessing that was Errol Flynn, eh? Come on, some of us are seriously trying to work this problem and do some research. I asked you a question earlier in this thread regarding the "seeing eye" engraving, its proportionality, and its location on the watchcase ... or am I stuck on the place where the key is inserted to wind the mechanism? Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Tricia on Apr 19, 2006 15:31:46 GMT -6
Gary--
I'm talking about the round mark on the back of the watch, just to the lower right of the inverted sabres. Is that the "seeing eye" or is that the place where one would wind the watch?
Regards ...
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Post by Tricia on Apr 19, 2006 15:33:30 GMT -6
I don't know how to cut and paste urls. Go to google and type in "C L Thiery," the database for the auction houses should be on the first page--there are no photographs.
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 19, 2006 15:56:19 GMT -6
Oh, OK The circle in the picture is for the key wind. I have not posted pictures of the symbols that surround C.L. Theiry's name. I have described them fairly well in the LBHA Newsletter that has been posted, but, I do not think it wise to post everything for the world to see. (To date, no one has copied these symbols) However I would be more than happy to let anyone associated with this organization see the watch personally! Many of the members have already seen our watch! We had it at 1998 re-enactment meeting in Hardin. We travel a fair amount and would be happy to make side trips for this purpose. Or you can come and see me! I'm in Florida. Gary-- I'm talking about the round mark on the back of the watch, just to the lower right of the inverted sabres. Is that the "seeing eye" or is that the place where one would wind the watch? Regards ...
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 19, 2006 17:29:32 GMT -6
I still cannot find the information, even though I have followed your instructions. If you would, please, bring the site your referring to up, right click on the URL, then when the copy menu comes up, just left click copy, then re-open this site, left click in the message reply box, right click and the paste menu will be there and just click on paste. That will copy the URL address into the message box. If it doesn't work the first time, keep trying, it's easy once you do it the first time! Thanks,,,,,,,,,,Gary I don't know how to cut and paste urls. Go to google and type in "C L Thiery," the database for the auction houses should be on the first page--there are no photographs.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 19, 2006 21:07:43 GMT -6
Don't know where your coming from on this one! Where do you get, I'm insenuating the watch was Tom's or Custer had it made for himself? Could you post a picture of the medal you have a copy of. What I have is on video and I do not know how to tranfer that to this medium. Grasping at Straws No. 1: . . .Is it not possible that General Sheridan gave the watch to Custer . . . ? Grasping at Straws No. 2 (from the Libbie Break-in Thread): . . . (Maybe that's when General Custer's Pocketwatch disappeared!) . . . Maggie Calhoun, General George Custer's sister, reported that her brother Tom Custer's watch was missing! Grasping at Straws No. 3: . . . It does give credence to Custer doing this sort of thing. And, yep, you guessed it, the saber tips on the Custer designed medal (in the picture) were pointing down! I forgot the Sheridan "straw" in my prior post. First Sheridan gave it to Custer and just had it engraved from the Michigan Brigade for giggles, I suppose. Then it is "very interesting" that Tom's watch was stolen from Libbie's apartment (wink, wink -- we all know it was really Custer's pocket watch). Then Custer had a medal made, so he probably had the pocket watch engraved to himself while he was at it. You have been bouncing all over the place, trying to make square historical facts fit into your round-hole reality. It doesn't work like that. You can see a photo of Custer wearing the medal in 1865 on Page 61 of Katz' Custer in Photographs.
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 20, 2006 5:37:38 GMT -6
I, and other's, have provided documentation for everything that has been brought forward. Yep, we're grasping at straws! That's the way research so often goes! The picture of the medal you speak of is not the one that is on file at the Monroe Museum! It is similar, but, the one on file has a set of sabers at the top, tips down, a five pointed star is under the sabers ,a Maltese Star is under the five pointed star, the name CUSTER is across the middle of the Maltese Star and the word TUEBOR is across the bottom. All are mounted on a gold ribbon, and there are some highlights in black. I do not know if this medal is something authentic or not, all I can say is that the Monroe Museum presented it as being designed by Custer! I also have one of the replica Custer Medals that the Monroe Museum sells. It is also, similar, but different from the two discussed above.
Thanks for all of the input so many have provided,,,,,, keep it coming Gary
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Post by Jas. Watson on Apr 20, 2006 10:02:29 GMT -6
Gary, I might as well be the evil grinch and be the first to say it right out. I think you need to face facts and come to the acceptance that the watch is spurious. In my profession I have seen many good folks come to us hoping that what they have is 'the real thing' and I have long found that while one does not like to shatter a dream, it is often better in the long run to just say it out; It isn't what you want it to be. Even if by some remote other-worldly fluke that the watch has ever even been touched by Custer--and the evidence is at this point overwhelmingly lacking-- there is about no way at all anyone could be really conviced of that fact. Not with the far reaching things you are trying to find. This has become more than grasping at straws, it has become slightly ludicrous. In order for something of that magnitude to ever be accepted in the legitimate antique world the evidence must be compelling. The number of fake items of all sorts that float around today compared to the genuine articles, is astonishing--and the establishment folks who would have to give endorsement to such a rare piece are, to say the least, most conservative. I would have to say that the chances of a reputable scholar, antiquarian, museum, or agency of accepting that watch as a genuine Custer piece at this point is about nil. I'm sorry, but there it is. I would accept the piece as what it is; a nice example of a mid 19th century key wind hunting case watch--a pretty nice find in itself, one that many folks would be glad to own.
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 20, 2006 10:51:20 GMT -6
I appreciate the input! I can tell you put a lot of thought into it, and I thank you for that! Actually several people have already said the same thing. (Just different words) I have always had doubt as to this watch being authentic, but, oh, what a great journey it has been trying to prove it not. Some people that have held it have had tear's in their eye's, some were trembling and some would not hold it. Even the collector that I bought it from has offered me 3 times what I paid for it! (Several times) One does not get too many times in life to take such a fun journey! I must say though, the journey isn't over yet! There's probably not much more that will come from the LBHA Bulletin Board but there are still records out there that have not been found.
Thanks again,,,,,,,,,, Gary
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Post by markland on Apr 20, 2006 13:01:03 GMT -6
"...there are still records out there that have not been found."
Amen brother, amen!
Of course, I am not looking for any regarding a watch, but who knows?
Billy
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Post by rch on Apr 20, 2006 13:56:38 GMT -6
Re: The Custer Badge
It appears from photos in "One of Custer's Wolverines" that the sabers to which the ribbon was attached could be worn edge up or down. A spring 1868 photo shows J. H. Kidd wearing the sabers edge down, but a photo from the 1890's shows him wearing the sabers edge up.
Re: The Badge of the Cavalry Corps of the Army of the Potomac
This badge in a slightly different design is most often illustrated with the edges of the sabers up. The version illustrated posted above may be an earlier design. Either way the illustrations could be upside down. I haven't been able to find a photo of anyone wearing one. One way to tell might be by looking at the clasp in the back of the badge.
Re: Sheridan's Personal Flag
I don't know how many personal flags Sheridan had. The only one I've ever seen illustrated is a red over white swallowtailed with a white star on the red and a red star on the white. The headquarters flag ot the Army of the Potomac's Cavalry Corps was a blue have swallowtailed flag with a red "C" over white crossed sabres. The corps flag appears in a frequently printed photo of Sheridan and a group of senior officers of the Cav. Corps taken in 1864.
rch
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Post by rch on Apr 20, 2006 14:08:04 GMT -6
Correctin the earlier photo of Kidd was from 1865.
rch
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Gary
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Gary on Apr 20, 2006 14:52:41 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply!!! "One of Custer's Wolverines" you mention, is this a book? I have to admit I don't have all of the books on Custer.
Thanks,,,, Gary
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Post by rch on Apr 20, 2006 15:05:29 GMT -6
Gary,
"One of Custer's Wolverine's" is a book taken from James Kidd's Civil War letters edited by Eric J. Wittenberg.
rch
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Post by Tricia on Apr 20, 2006 15:06:52 GMT -6
Yes, it's a book. I have a similar book, or it may be the same narrative with a different title: Riding With Custer: Recollections of a Cavalryman in the Civil War,[/b], by JH Kidd, 1997, Bison Books, University of Nebraska Press. While this is a great tale, it's not necessarily a book one buys for the photographic reproductions.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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