What would Benteen have done?

[AZ Ranger]

Mike all I can say is I wouldn't want to be the first guy on either end of the V when hundreds of Indians come up and my fellow soldiers have to shoot in my direction.

If you could make it a triangle I would feel more comfortable but the terrain does not allow it.

I do appreciate you effort and it helps me to visualize.

AZ Ranger

[mcaryf]

Hi AZRanger

I agree with you that it would have been a grim place to be but would you prefer Benteen's company's actual position pn Reno Hill where they could be fired upon from all 4 sides and Indians could get close enough under cover to throw stones at them?

Regards

Mike

[wild]

You would have to close off the ends of that position otherwise the two open flanks would have been rolled up.

[mcaryf]

Hi Wild

Yes it would have needed an improvised barricade, as they did on Reno Hill, to put a blocking force along the valley floor a little way in from the open end plus two strong points at each prong of the horseshoe - these were both on elevated knolls. However, the three positions do have the advantage that they can only seriously be attacked from one direction and are not subject to dangerous cross-fire. As I posted before, a substantial length of the Reno Hill position was continuously exposed to enfilade fire.

I guess the Indians would have been able to overwhelm it if they had been prepared to take the casualties but typically they did not fight like that.

Regards

Mike

[AZ Ranger]

You would have to close off the ends of that position otherwise the two open flanks would have been rolled up.

Well said Wild

AZ Ranger

[Dark Cloud]

They're exposed high up with no cover, surrounded by enemy with lots of cover. The stones, arrows, and dirt thrown at the Reno position were from the river side where there was cover. The only point of concern for 'enfilade' fire was from Sharpshooter Hill, a long ways away. One Indian was an unexpectedly good shot, but once he was nailed, or forced to move, that went away. The Indian positions were, except on the west, quite far.

Somewhat puzzling, your defensive position posited on Weir is target ready for enfilade fire far more than at Reno, and is how it would be rolled up.

The animals took it in the slats at Reno, but imagine those animals at Weir, how easy it would be to run them out with the road area 30 feet higher back then.

[mcaryf]

Dear all

I am quite enjoying this debate, although it is fairly meaningless in the context of what actually happened. However, you have to be fair and consider the two positions Reno Hill and Weir in a similar manner.

The Reno Hill position had virtually no cover from the shape of the ground and the troopers initially had to lie flat and hope. There is a trivial rise and fall across it with the exception that the positions occupied along the West side on the bluff edge were a few feet higher than the rest. This was actually a significant disadvantage as Indians occupying any of the broken ground to the East of the position of which there is plenty within 400 yards could get a clear shot at Benteen's and McDougall's companies who had to man that bluff edge. This is in addition to the Indians on Sharpshooters who can overlook the whole position.

In RCOI testimony it was stated that the Indians occupied both Sharpshooters and a knoll on the other side (upstream) of the position. Obviously now there is a road and a car park so I cannot tell how that has changed the lie of the land but from all accounts there was virtually no cover from these two attacking points.

Edgerly expected that the Indians could charge into his position on the NE corner and overwhelm it (his comment was to the effect that this is what soldiers would have done). Thus pointing out that 2,000 fighters could overwhelm a position held by 300 is obvious if the larger force would take the losses.

The position on Weir Ridges clearly has excellent protection on 3 sides so the defence could concentrate on the open end. Three companies could have held the two sides and the apex with a company at each end point redoubt, one dug in to cover the entrance and one in reserve to give others an opportunity for rest! The stock could be kept up the far end where they would only be vulnerable to fire from positions which are themselves overlooked by the two strong points and at least 400 yards away. The strongpoints are on narrow bluffs which would have been more expensive to overrun than the equivalent positions on Reno Hill where the Indians could conduct a mounted charge over virtually flat terrain.

But for the water, I would reckon Weir Ridges a better position. Gibbon testified at RCOI that Reno Hill was an extremely weak position and personally counted 48 dead animals in one area.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

There is virtually no effect on the field from the road and monument.

Sharpshooter Hill is quite far, as are all higher positions from Reno Hill, and when you were exposed to shoot on SS, you were exposed to return fire from those in cover, and after a brief round of success, that went away. Same at Weir Point, only more so, because surrounding positions, while lower, offered great cover. Not so for any defenders in a position to fire at a surrounding enemy.

The animals were the center of a circular firing squad, so they were in a bad position regardless, but worse at Weir Point where they would be seen for miles as an enticement.

This is a terrible picture I took from somewhere by museum, I think. Still, I think it suggests the vulnerability of Weir that Google doesn't quite reveal.

Okay, it didn't work here, but here's the URL.
www.darkendeavors.com/forum/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=9&photoid=82

[mcaryf]

Hi DC

I am not sure what your picture is trying to tell me other than that Weir Ridges dominate the surrounding countryside.

To see the extent to which Reno Hill fails to do that the photos on this site show it quite well.

www.friendslittlebighorn.com/custerslaststand.htm



Regards

Mike

[AZ Ranger]

I guess you have to be there to get the full impact. At Reno the Indians had concealment, tall grass, but not much cover to use to get close. Also the troopers had a perimeter which covered approximatley 360 and no flanks.

[Dark Cloud]

It shows the lack of cover and vulnerability for anyone on it. Far worse than LSH. You'd probably need to see it in person to judge whether a photo shows anything well. Photos of that land can be quite deceptive.

Also, the early photos do not depict the lush grassland we have today. Unlikely the year previous had such cover as you see now.

[mcaryf]

Hi AZRanger,

At Reno the Indians had such good cover that they could get so close that they could even throw stones and lumps of earth at the troops that is why Benteen had to cause three charges to be made to clear the Indians away from close positions at various points round the perimeter.

Hi DC

If you are on the highest ridge line in the vicinity you have the best cover because you can choose when you show yourself. Obviously for one person to be able to fire at another they must both be able to see each other so both can potentially shoot. The person with the advantage is the one in the higher position because he can typically always see his opponent whenever he chooses to look over the crest of the ridge whilst the other has to get lucky that he is ready when a head pops up. Also the person in the higher position is revealing a smaller target - his head, whilst the lower one may have all his body visibile. A high ridge with a flat top that is not overlooked, as most of the Weir position is, gives very good defensive benefit. The problem with Weir is that it has an open end but the promontaries on either side of the entrance make it hard for the enemy to exploit that without incurring heavy losses.

Regards

Mike

[Mike Powell]

Mike,

Re the advantage of elevation to a marksman, I believe there is a factor of disadvantage dependent on where on the high ground a man is placed and the degree of slope involved. If a man is actually raising himself above the crest to observe, and especially if the slope requires he raise significantly to allow depressing his weapon, then he is skylighted. Such a trooper may make a better target than the man below him.

Comments?

Yours,

Mike Powell

[Dark Cloud]

I guess I don't see a place on Weir where you're not exposed. But I'm no soldier.

[AZ Ranger]

Hi AZ Ranger,

At Reno the Indians had such good cover that they could get so close that they could even throw stones and lumps of earth at the troops that is why Benteen had to cause three charges to be made to clear the Indians away from close positions at various points round the perimeter.

Mike - concealment does not stop a bullet but hides the person and tall grass is an example. Cover provides concealment and stops a bullet such as 30 " of sand bags. At least that is my definition of the difference between concealment and cover. I would rather have cover.There was no cover for the Indians at Reno.

AZ Ranger