What would Benteen have done?

[elisabeth]

Without embracing all the "rashness" and "imprudence" allegations that were levelled at Custer after LBH, I think we'd all probably agree that personal factors played some part in what happened. There was Custer's temperament -- "toujours l'audace!" -- for one; there was Custer's Luck, which had protected him from ever having to recognise defeat; there was his uncommunicative command style; and there were the political/career pressures he was under, making it imperative for him to score a spectacular success.

I wonder if it might be illuminating to try to imagine what a different commander might have done in the same situation? I was thinking initially of the decisions taken from MTC onwards, but we could take it back further if you like. But basically: those five companies, facing that village, under the command of ... Benteen? Keogh? Reno? From what we know of them, how differently might each of them have handled it? And how different might the outcome have been?

It may prove to be a useless exercise, but it just might help to point up some of the key Custer decisions ...

[PhillyBlair]

WWBD? Interesting.

You love these "what if's," don't you, Elisabeth!

There are obviously so many scenarios we could come up with, but to limit it to the bottom line -- I don't think there would have been a massacre if Reno or Benteen had been in command at that point. Keogh? Hmmmmmmm...........

[AZ Ranger]

Or maybe the whole Regiment would be gone. Remember "keep the Regiment together" by participants and theorist after the fact.

AZ Ranger

[elisabeth]

Yes, I'm a bit "Hmmmmmm" about Keogh, too. It'd be nice to think he'd do the prudent thing and withdraw -- but I wouldn't like to bet on it. Like Custer, he positively relished fighting. My suspicion would be that with him, there'd have been no messing around and delaying with two companies here, three companies there; he'd have seized the moment, and charged straight into the village at Ford B. Most likely, they'd all have been cut to pieces, apart from any odd individual lucky enough to have his horse bolt. There's the outside chance that the Reno/Benteen response to a fight in the village would have been different from their response to Custer's actual fight -- and indeed the faintest possibility that an immediate attack at Ford B might have come just in time to prevent Reno's rout and demoralisation, thus changing everything -- but the most probable outcome would still have been five dead companies. Rather more dead Indians than under Custer, but enough to count as a victory? Doubtful.

[elisabeth]

AZ, true -- it's a case of "I wouldn't start from here", isn't it. Under another commander, things might have been different from the divide -- or from the 24th -- or even from the Terry conference, as others might have accepted Brisbin's cavalry or the Gatlings. And/or even followed orders to the letter.

[Realbird]

"Tell me please, was there any generalship displayed in so scattering the regiment that only the merest of chance, intervention of providence-or what you will-saved the whole 12 troops from being 'wiped out.' That is all I blame Custer for-the scattering, as it were, to the -well, four winds."
Benteen

Based on Benteen's statement it may be safe to assume that he would have kept the command together and possible won the day. Who knows?

[wild]

The Indians inarticulate "organisation"and their inability to do other than react ment that although Custer's scattering of his troops was his undoing it also saved no not saved but resulted in the escape of the rear echlons.
Benteen's rash unorganised retreat to Weir point almost handed the entire regiment to the Balubas.They missed their chance because their "organisation was unable to think.
Slan

[Dark Cloud]

There was no unorganized retreat TO Weir Point. And the retreat FROM Weir Point was pretty well done, given the material at hand. One casualty. Hard to argue with that.

[wild]

There was no unorganized retreat TO Weir Point
The definition of a rout.A body of unorganised leaderless troops departing the scene of a defeat to an unknown destination.The Weir affair fits the description.

[AZ Ranger]

The definition of a rout.A body of unorganized leaderless troops departing the scene of a defeat to an unknown destination.The Weir affair fits the description.


What defeat at Wier point? A skirmish line for rear protection is hardly unorganized troops. Company commanders are expected to make those decisions and execute. Captains don't sit around waiting to be told what to do. Right Fred?

AZ Ranger

[wild]

What defeat at Wier point?
Oh you silly man AZ. DC do us a favour and explain to our friend.

[wild]

Oh alright then I'll do it myself.
AZ The term advance used in conjunction with Weir Point is misleading.Everything about that movement resembled a rout other than the direction.It was not coordinated,it was not under leadership,it's intention was not aggressive and its destination was not known.I think retreat is a far more appropriate term.
Slan

[AZ Ranger]

Oh alright then I'll do it myself.
AZ The term advance used in conjunction with Weir Point is misleading.Everything about that movement resembled a rout other than the direction.It was not coordinated,it was not under leadership,it's intention was not aggressive and its destination was not known.I think retreat is a far more appropriate term.
Slan


Wild- The defeat and direction is everything in the definition of a rout. It is the running away that can lead to higher casualties. I like how you try to make a definition work by discarding the key elements but it doesn't work for me. The definition of a silly man is one who believes everything Wild says.


Terry's adventure in Tullock's must have been a big rout then according to your definition. An element of his command had been defeated and his immediate unit was scattered all over the place and also had the remaining elements you use for the definition of a rout as long as we throw out the direction.

How could Benteen be routed when you say he never engaged before Wier. He had not been defeated and was not going away from the battlefield?

AZ Ranger

[wild]

How could Benteen be routed when you say he never engaged before Wier. He had not been defeated and was not going away from the battlefield?
He was rendered ineffective by the sight of the numbers opposed to him and the state of Reno's command.

[Realbird]

You are absolutely correct!