A couple puzzling points

[AZ Ranger]

So did Reno.If you form a line everyone can shoot not just the lucky ones on the outside of your mob.Two or three lines would be preferable makes the process more articulate.[ya'd never make a cavalry commander DC]

Of course the line was formed on foot also which allowed it to be flanked. You can't shoot very well to the flank when your in a line.

AZ Ranger

[harpskiddie]

Charging in line is a wonderful idea if you don't have to negotiate a village of tepees in the process, especially if you can envelope the target. In the case under discussion, neither condition pertained.

The best formation for charging through a village would be by twos or fours, twos preferrably.

Gordie

[AZ Ranger]

Especially if you had left-handed shooters on the left side.

[wild]

The best formation for charging through a village would be by twos
No that's the formation for Noah's Ark.[but good effort]

Especially if you had left-handed shooters on the left side.I didn't know they issued left handed shooters?

[elisabeth]

For what it's worth, the Harper's illustration of the charge through the Washita village shows them charging by twos. True that their man didn't actually take part -- but he'll have had eye-witness accounts soon after, so it's probably accurate ...

[AZ Ranger]

I didn't know they issued left handed shooters?

Some were two-fisted.

[crzhrs]

<Crossing this river isn't a big deal and could be done pretty
quick.>

If we look at what happened to Reno's command when he "charged" and tried re-crossing the river:

The soldiers were running and were forced away from their original crossing (Does anyone know how difficult the original crossing was?) to another area of the river that contained steep banks and deep water. The horses hesitated and were forced down the bank and into the water from horses pressing them from behind.

So obviously crossing the river WAS a big deal if you didn't select the proper crossing. How much time did it take Custer to find a proper crossing? And did Boyer know every crossing? And how much did the river change course and depth throughout the season?

The cavalry having to attack from high, broken ground and across a river without knowing exactly where to cross was just as much a factor of their defeat as anything else.

[elisabeth]

Reno's original crossing was quite easy, I believe -- I think it's described as about belly-deep to the horses, and with a gravel bottom. (Much easier than most of the crossings they'd made on the march.) And they had a nice clue to its feasibility, with trails showing the Indians used it. No such luxury at MTF; pony tracks on the east bank, but no obvious exit trail on the west. (According to some observers, anyway.)

Before long they'd have a clue to another good crossing, when Indians started coming across at Deep Ravine ... but by then it may have been too late to take advantage of it ...

[Dark Cloud]

Judas. Return of the company clerk. Reno was not attacking the village in line, but Indians to his front. Safe bet, had anyone made it to the village, they wouldn't - because they couldn't - enter it in line, and no orders to that effect would need be given. Hitting a lodge at speed would guarantee breaking your horse's legs.

Crossing the Yellowstone is a big deal. Crossing the LBH isn't. Crossing the Rosebud could be done unnoticed. When you're scared, everything looks steep and dangerous and impossible to do. MTC is a cakewalk. Only a paved bridge would be easier.

[wild]

.For what it's worth, the Harper's illustration of the charge through the Washita village shows them charging by twos.
Come on people use a little logic.
The standard counter to the attack by colum of 2s is to part and let them through then close in around behind them.
Life expectancy of first two riders is about 10 seconds.
Taking down the leading riders also causes havoc among the following troopers.
The fire power is also greatly reduced.Troopers being unable to fire to their front and one side.

Reno was not attacking the village in line, but Indians to his front.
Reno formed line long before he came in contact with the Indians.

Safe bet, had anyone made it to the village, they wouldn't - because they couldn't - enter it in line, and no orders to that effect would need be given. Hitting a lodge at speed would guarantee breaking your horse's legs.
It is possible for an individual rider to charge through the village.It follows then that a line of individual riders can charge through.See above re horses legs.

Crossing the Yellowstone is a big deal. Crossing the LBH
isn't.
Crossing in the vicinity of 1500 Indians [you know the ones you describe as a brisk walk away]is a different proposition.Any sort of an attack at this point is fatal.

Judas. Return of the company clerk.
I can live with Judas but company clerk is really hurtful.

[crzhrs]

The Harper's Illustration is a romanticized version. There is a wide open gap "conveniently" located between the tepees where the cavalry is charging. The tepees are lined up almost single file.

I doubt that was a true depiction of how the village was set up.

I checked several Washita sites and there is no description of any soldiers riding through the village. It was attacked from four sides. Many of the Indians ran for cover along the river and in thick brush where much of the fighting took place.

At Sand Creek the soldiers drove the Indians out of the village with horitzers then chased them down by horseback.

When Crook attacked He Dog's Village in March 1876, most of the Indians got away.

I don't know what Custer/Reno expected to do by charging into the village. The numbers of tepees and closeness to one another would have been a mass of confusion for everyone, including soldiers. Maybe Custer wanted to drive the Indians out of the village, making them vulnerable to mounted cavalry.

And maybe that was Custer's strategy after all. Force the Indians out of the village, to run, capture it and make the Indians destitute with no choice to give up.

[harpskiddie]

Elisabeth:

The ford used by Reno was very easy to use, having slopes into the water and gravel on one side [at least]. It no longer exists, as the river has changed course in that area and cut a new channel where the mouth of Ash Creek used to be. Actually the ford does still exist - it just isn't at the mouth of Ash anymore. There are now two islands there [or were last time I was there]. That is why most researchers do not believe that Reno crossed at the mouth. The area is completely different now that it was in 1876, as are many places along the river, which tends to cut new channels frequently. The area of Ford D, for example, has also changed dramatically. It's kinda hard to explain - like so many things dealing with the terrain, you have to be there [or have been there].

wild:

Reno already knew the Sioux were out in front of him. He could see them and the dust they were kicking up, which is why he adopted a line formation for his advance/ charge down the bottom. The "standard counter" to a cavalry charge by twos which you cite is relevant only to a defending body of cavalry or infantry which itself is formed in line(s), and either advancing [cavalry never receives a charge while standing still] or prepared to receive the charge [in the case of infantry] not to a standing Indian village. That is why warriors did not defend villages by staying in the village, but by going out to meet the attackers, where possible, to keep them out.

Reno was not charging the village, but the warriors in front of him, likely thinking or hoping that they would scatter. When they showed no inclination of doing so, he halted and fought a skirmish line and blah blah blah. Your comment about if one could charge through a village then so could a line is simply not correct. A village, especially one comprised of several different camps, did not feature aligned streets or wide boulevard or regular placement of the lodges. As it was, it wouldn't have mattered a fig, since if Reno and his three companies had got into the village on whatever formation, it almost certain that he and they would never have got out [except maybe a few fortunates who were on the river side and could escape that way].

A charge by twos is not the same as marching by twos on parade or on route [which is how cavalry on the plains usually marched, not by fours as in the movies]. There is ample room for the troopers to use their revolvers on targets of opportunity to their front and both sides.

Gordie

[markland]

"Crossing the Yellowstone is a big deal. Crossing the LBH isn't. Crossing the Rosebud could be done unnoticed. When you're scared, everything looks steep and dangerous and impossible to do. MTC is a cakewalk. Only a paved bridge would be easier."

I think Gordie made the same point in his just posted message but even so, I will reiterate. The depth of the river was not the issue. The banks were the problem. Crossing from east to west between Reno's ford A and MTC would have encountered steep embankments on the western side at most likely crossing spots, if not everywhere, between those two locations. Somewhere I seem to remember that the jump from the bank to the water where Reno crossed in his "charge" was mentioned as vertical drop of 3-4 feet. Too much, even if only 2-3 feet, for a horse to scramble up, with rider, without having had the bank cut-down with shovels or axes.

Be good,

Billy

[crzhrs]

Billy:

Good point . . . it wasn't the depth of the water but the streambanks that caused a back-up for Reno's retreat.

And who knows what the conditions were when Custer was trying to get into the village downstream: streambank, width, water depth, etc.

By having to attack from high, broken ground, and trying to make a suitable river crossing all added to Custer's problems.

[Dark Cloud]

The photos in WCF don't suggest the banks were an issue. Soldiers under Reno crossed the LBH at different points and, in some cases, several times on the retreat/charge.

Still waiting to hear how many of Reno's men could act as cavalry when Benteen arrived, how many wounded there were all told, how many usable mounts, how many dead, and for the militarily correct formula for protection of the pack train - the sine qua non of the moment - and the wounded while simultaneously conducting a rescue mission and/or brilliant offensive move against annoyed and vastly superior numbers in conjunction with Custer, who of course is not expected to care about wounded. If you can't do it, lay off Benteen, who was under the command of Reno at that point.