A couple puzzling points

[markland]

darkcloud said:

The photos in WCF don't suggest the banks were an issue. Soldiers under Reno crossed the LBH at different points and, in some cases, several times on the retreat/charge.

Still waiting to hear how many of Reno's men could act as cavalry when Benteen arrived, how many wounded there were all told, how many usable mounts, how many dead, and for the militarily correct formula for protection of the pack train - the sine qua non of the moment - and the wounded while simultaneously conducting a rescue mission and/or brilliant offensive move against annoyed and vastly superior numbers in conjunction with Custer, who of course is not expected to care about wounded. If you can't do it, lay off Benteen, who was under the command of Reno at that point.

Re the second paragraph. If you are so damned interested in those numbers, run over to the Denver NARA facility. Ask for microfilm series M744 roll 72. That is the 7th Cav.'s regimental returns for the years 1874-1881. Once the film is threaded, advance it to the regimental return for June, 1876. I believe it is dated June 30th. That is the closest official numbers you will get unless Reno's report mentions total casualties per company, which I don't believe it does. You have outstanding research facilities in the Denver area which you really should take advantage of rather than asking to be spoon-fed the information. Normally I do not mind doing that type of thing but when someone obviously has the facilities, time and expertise to look it up for themself, I get a little testy, especially while this physical affliction is aggravating me to death! Speaking of research facilities, I would bet that the Denver Public Library will also have that roll of film.

Grumpily,

Billy

[crzhrs]

Speaking of Denver (Broncos) the Pats are still in the playoffs!

[Dark Cloud]

I grasp the concept, Markland, but you miss the point utterly. We're still not playing grenades. Closest is not only not good enough but irrelevant. It won't tell us what was available to Benteen at the precise time recent posts (and a kabillion previous) assume he had seven companies to work with and he SHOULD have gone to save Custer. I've never seen mention of how many horses from Reno's guys were available at that point.

It strikes me that if you're going to imply dereliction or treason or something awful to a guy who fought rather well on our behalf, you ought to make the accusation based on - oh, I don't know - say 'facts,' at least as would have been available to him. I don't know or care particularly what the correct number was. My point is nobody else does either, and until they do know they ought to stop damning these guys.

Further, I don't think Benteen had any obligation, military or otherwise, to leave Reno and risk mission and regiment. If there were such an obligation, what is it? Melodramatic utterances aside, I've never seen any demonstration such an obligation existed. If it did, odd Custer didn't seem to feel it.

[harpskiddie]

dc:

You may be right about Benteen's obligation, or not. That is debatable. But not by me, because I don't care what he should have done, only in what he did. And debating his obligation on his arrival at Reno Hill has nothing whatever to do with what he did beforehand or afterward.

As to the wounded on hand when he arrived, I can tell you how many there were, and who they were; but I cannot say which of them were too seriously injured to participate in any move toward or away from Custer. I don't know about the number of horses, but I'm getting close to a good approximation. But you'll just have to wait until the book comes out in, as Nathan Brittles said in She Wore A Yellow Ribbon "ten or twelve years."

As to the banks along the Little Horn between Reno Ford and the retreat ford [which as you rightly point out was not the only one used on the retreat], they are passable in most places, but not what a horseman would choose, had he a choice. Reno was lucky, in that he hit a place reasonably clear of trees, which is why he probably veered that way when pushed, and that had been used by buffalo in the past as a crossing - so that the far [east] bank had a cut in it which made getting out easier. Horses cannot cross a river chest deep and climb up a 3 or 4 foot cutbank.

There actually was a better ford behind the belt of timber from which he fled, although the bluffs beyond it were no picnic. Some men crossed here, I think, and some in between here and the retreat ford [which was really not a ford at all]. Herendeen and company probably used the first mentioned.

Gordie

[markland]

darkcloud said:

I grasp the concept, Markland, but you miss the point utterly. We're still not playing grenades. Closest is not only not good enough but irrelevant. It won't tell us what was available to Benteen at the precise time recent posts (and a kabillion previous) assume he had seven companies to work with and he SHOULD have gone to save Custer. I've never seen mention of how many horses from Reno's guys were available at that point.

It strikes me that if you're going to imply dereliction or treason or something awful to a guy who fought rather well on our behalf, you ought to make the accusation based on - oh, I don't know - say 'facts,' at least as would have been available to him. I don't know or care particularly what the correct number was. My point is nobody else does either, and until they do know they ought to stop damning these guys.

Further, I don't think Benteen had any obligation, military or otherwise, to leave Reno and risk mission and regiment. If there were such an obligation, what is it? Melodramatic utterances aside, I've never seen any demonstration such an obligation existed. If it did, odd Custer didn't seem to feel it.

Oh, I grasped that you likely were being rhetorical but I disagree with you on the validity of the June, 1876 return. Once you look at those yourself, you will understand. And you are damning everyone equally with the statement "...if you're going to imply dereliction or treason or something awful to a guy who fought rather well on our behalf, you ought to make the accusation based on - oh, I don't know - say 'facts,' at least as would have been available to him." In my case, I doubt seriously whether you, even with all your search expertise, could find where I condemned Benteen. Reno on the other hand, I have damned his "charge" loudly. In my opinion, for Benteen to even begin to get a rough idea of the numbers of men, horses and ammunition available would have taken, in that disorganized cluster at the top of the bluff, at least thirty minutes.

Billy

[Dark Cloud]

Oh, come on, Markland. I'm neither damning you specifically or people in general. Just calling out those who claim Benteen had an obligation to go to Custer with a notional seven troops to divvy up between wounded, train, and offensive action to show he had seven troops of cavalry available. He didn't remotely. I'm pretty clear, I think.

What the actual number of wounded turned out to be, what stragglers coming in totaled later, what the number of horses who survived in army hands was, isn't the point; only what Benteen would have seen and known at the period in question.

As for Reno, if you can show how a retreat could have been done with fewer casualties, using maps and photos, fine. If not, I think it wrong to dump on him. He was experienced, he's seen his men in action that day. Sometimes, running like hell keeps you in shape to fight again. Did at the LBH. And I still find it absurd that people want Reno to have done what they claim Custer did, only with less men, but somehow to different result.

I don't think there was any place on that river a horse in water to his stomach had to jump with a rider an additional four feet. I understand the photos were taken later, but I still don't see it.

[harpskiddie]

dc:

Then you need to go and have a look for yourself.

Gordie

[Dark Cloud]

What photo in Where Custer Fell, which shows MTC and Reno's crossing in nearby years, best exemplifies your point? I'm not seeing it, or sign of it.

[wild]

DC

If there were such an obligation, what is it?
Benteen's after battle report states that he was sure a fight was progressing to his front [Custer].He also describes watching the repulse of Reno and states that because of the number of Indians and the poor fighting qualities of his own unit he did not join in the fray.We see here Benteen's mind set.If Reno had not extracated himself from the valley, Benteen was not going to attempt to rescue him.
All this brou ha ha about Benteen having no option but to render assistance to another unit distracts from the real issue which was that Benteen was not going to lose 3 troops in either Reno's or Custer's cause.
Benteen was too clever a soldier to put obligations before sound military sense.

Melodramatic utterances aside,
Obligations are by their nature melodramatic so I'm unable to supply an example of an emotional free obligation.
Within a regiment the culture would be based on traditions and a code of practice which would place a higher premium on loyalty and courage than on say military logic. Most of the elite forces have passwords based on such a philosophy of obligation...semper fi,no guts no glory etc.
If Benteen's defence is to be sound military judgement,fine,but dont use Reno situation to prop it up.

[harpskiddie]

dc:

I do not yet have a copy of Where Custer Fell. I base my comments on having been on the ground myself, several times at various times of the year, but usually in the summer. What is seen in any of the photos of the crossings depends on when the photo was taken and at what stage the Little Horn was. There are times when the banks don't appear to be high because the river is deeper than at other times - that depends upon the time of year and the weather during the past winter.

For a view of the bank on the western side of the retreat ford, see Papers On Little Bighorn Battlefield Archaeology...The Equipment Dump, Marker 7, and The Reno Crossing, Reprints in Anthropology, Volume 42, pages 213 and214. See also pages 209/210, where it is indicated that the bank was at least 1 meter above the water level [the skull was found about 50 cms below the top and they excavated 50 cms below its location, without going into the water].

I never said or intimated that MTC Ford had high banks. It is a natural ford and was a good one. The main Reno retreat crossing was neither, and is well-described in most of the reminiscences, and probably the testimony as well. I'm not going to bother looking it up. You can do that for yourself, and if you find anyone who says it was either a natural ford or a good one, I would appreciate your referencing it for my benefit.

Gordie

[Dark Cloud]

I've been on the ground in less observant years. But, I'm looking at the photos taken ten years after the fight, page 40 and 41 of WCF. Cannot tell the depth of the river, of course, and there are sections that look steep but others that do not. The text says they're steep but I'm still not seeing the horror suggested. Although, under fire it must have looped like the Jungfrau after an ice storm. But a herd of old men and women seem to have made it across okay for the pix. I'll leave it to AZ.

[wild]

I then noticed our men in large numbers running for the bluffs on the right bank of the stream .I concluded at once that those had been repulsed and was of the opinion that had I crossed the ford with my battalion that I should have had it treated in like manner;for from long experience with cavalry ,I judged there were 900 vetern Indians right there at that time.against which the large element of recruits in my battalion would stand no earthly chance as mounted men.

That is an extract from Benteen's report on the action and is most significant in understanding why he did not follow Custer's order.
Benteen had assessed the situation accurately and decided regardless of who was in trouble in the valley he was not going or was unable to use his battalion to assist or cover the retreat .
DC and others are of the opinion that it was his concern for Reno's shattered unit and the wounded that compelled him to stay.But no Benteen saw the odds and played it safe.

[crzhrs]

Reno's River Crossing during his retreat:

CENTENNIAL CAMPAIGN (Gray): They (Indians) fired into them (soldiers) when they jammed up at the crossing where the banks were steep and the water deep.

LBH CAMPAIGN (Sarf): Indians shot down at the congested mass. Their (soldiers) horses leaped down 5 feet or more into the water.

A GOOD YEAR TO DIE (Robinson): Reno's men found a 6 foot drop. Many of the horses refused to jump until pressure from those behind forced them in.

CUSTER'S LUCK (Stewart): Dr. Porter said the water came up to the saddles. The river was 25'-50' wide, the western bank 5' above the water, some said more. The only way to get into the stream was jump & while the leaders hesitated they were forced by the pressure of those behind. The eastern bank was 8' and one of the steepest ever ascended by horse or mule. It was steep, abrupt, and slippery. Lt. Varnum said that his horse nearly threw him off by jumping up so straight. As a result of these obstacles the battalion got jammed and soon lost all semblance of organization. The horses were frantic with fear and excitement, many out of control, and several of the troopers jumped into the stream never to be seen again. The crossing, which would have been difficult enough under ordinary conditions, was made doubly so by the fact that it was made under the sniping fire of the Indians on the bluffs . . .

[AZ Ranger]

Troopers With Custer page 168 has two pictures of the Reno crossing out of Timber. It looks steeper and deeper in 1938 then in 1913. In 1913 you can see bars of substrate in the water and sticking out of the water.

On page 58 taken 1886 it doesn't look as steep. There is also what appears to 100 horsemen in the photo. Maybe they were guarding the site so it didn't get disturbed.

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

Two points horses did make it up so it is not impossible. Secondly if you were horseback and hit the steep part without a cut then it would appear very tall.

The Indians probably helped the horses to get up the hill. The experienced or lucky horsemen stayed on his horse. The unlucky whether experienced or not were unhorsed.

AZ Ranger

My son broke his saddle tree trying to go up a steep bank and his horse flipped over and on the saddle. He was 13 at the time and his recollection of it is much steeper than the place he took me to the day after he broke the saddle tree.