Gibson's Letter about Benteen's Scout

[Dark Cloud]

My own suspicion, only that, is that Kanipe was likely sent by TWC without Custer knowing in correct anticipation as he likely did often for Bro. Martini was sent ten, fifteen minutes later by the actual commander with virtually the same message. I base this on Kanipe's message as more excited than Martini's which followed it - no mention of dropping packs - and that Kanipe never actually heard Custer give the order, and that TWC had often and correctly anticipated George. The plus of Nepotism. The illustrative example of the downside to come.

Forting up cavalry on high open ground with no cover is a brain fart if you expect to fight as cavalry in the immediate future. Losing no men, you definitely would lose mounts. WAITING to perform this idiocy is pretty stupid. Custer wasn't remotely stupid.

These are desperate attempts to manuever blame from Custer, just like the current one - 'we can manipulate Gray's timetable to PROVE Benteen dawdled' - runs on the rocks as well. Benteen and Reno would far prefer to RESCUE Custer than see him killed: all the plusses and none of the downside for them. Further, like each other or not, they were totally dependent on each other, and would be killed by their own if they were remotely thought to have left others to die.

Meaningful esprit de corps, don't you know.

[elisabeth]

Mike,

What I do like very much about Kuhlman is his notion of Custer having an "oh sh*t" moment when he saw what he'd sent Reno into, and then his relief when he saw Reno had had the wit to go into skirmish line. That bit's persuasive, I think. But yes, definite holes -- as you're right, at the stage when Custer sends Martini there'd be nothing to prevent him from backtracking towards the packs and forting up wherever he chose (e.g. Reno Hill).

Wait till you get to his flow-of-battle scenario; that'll make your eyes pop! He's a puzzling guy, Kuhlman. Huge understanding of the human factors, which is terrific; intimate knowledge of the ground; a great body of work on the physical evidence, too; all of which makes you long to believe him on his battle scenario. That, as you'll find, is way adrift from the consensus. (Which doesn't in itself make him wrong, of course -- but it's certainly a bit of a stretch.) Still, I do -- personally -- believe a lot of his insights along the way are very valuable indeed, even if one can't quite swallow the overall theory whole ...

DC --

I may be wrong, but I didn't think the current discussion was aimed to prove Benteen dawdled even more than Gray suggested? Gray clearly has it in for Benteen. As I understand it, the recent discussions are aimed at questioning some of his more bias-driven conclusions.

I've long liked your perception that a Benteen riding to Custer's rescue would have been a very happy Benteen indeed. Nice one.

What you say about "leaving others to die" is very pertinent. Reno's retreat did exactly that. Did some of the solidarity of the Reno Hill survivors come from complicity, do you think? There can't have been one of the valley fight survivors who didn't feel some guilt over the men left behind. Especially as they then had grandstand seats for the butchering of their comrades. Might this, first, have led to the widespread gossip-driven condemnations of Reno (no-one, after all, likes to feel they've behaved badly; it's better to blame someone else) and then to the closing of ranks at the RCOI?

[Dark Cloud]

Elizabeth, I've said that constantly.

People who get all inflamed about the RCOI and the LBH simply haven't read many investigations into battles and various actions. This is all boilerplate, to a large degree. Good people do bad things, or good things badly, almost by mathematical model, sooner than later. They can recover and perform brilliantly again. I'd guess anyone who's been in combat a bunch thinks he may have been at least partially responsible for some friendly deaths or wounds, but he also may know he saved others later. It's got to be awful to weigh that, and I know some who do. Not having been in combat, it would be both stupid and insulting for me to judge any of them.

But ethically and to history, if it must be done it's on average that they need be judged, I think. It's unfair otherwise. It's why the bashing of Reno annoys me.

Some think otherwise, in fairness. Paul Fussell, WWII vet and officer and medal winner, says that after about 230 days of combat a soldier is almost worthless (caveat: WWII combat soldiers were almost constantly at the line for years, weren't all volunteer and far away from home)(sorta like what we're considering doing in Iraq). They become too cautious, and their continued existence proves it. The newbies die first.

And no, I don't agree with the point of the thread not involved with Benteen's dawdle. There is a definite attempt to unravel Gray in order to resurrect Custer. People knowingly and unknowingly contribute. For all I know they are correct, but they have no proof and less than pure intent.

[crzhrs]

Martini stated somewhere (RCOI or in THE CUSTER MYTH) that he did not know what Custer & Cooke were discussing nor what was written on the note. He stated Cooke told him to take the message to Benteen and come back if it was safe. If not stay with your company.

Martini's contradictions are all over the place and it is very difficult to know just exactly what was the truth.

He said his English was not so good at the RCOI (1879) and it could have been even "more not so good" in 1876.

[crzhrs]

I have always questioned why Benteen had no medical personnel, but more importantly no scouts, white or red. The Crows knew the area so they would have known exactly where to look for any outlying village or fleeing Indians rather than soldiers who had to plod along sending out point men to high ridges to see what was there.

Even if it was an attack mission . . . no medical personnel or scouts would have made Benteen's job even more difficult.

The majority of the scouts were with Reno while Custer had a few Crows and Boyer.

Why was Benteen left on his own?

[Dark Cloud]

Whereas the Quicken foulup was not your fault, I am now seriously addicted to Google Earth and you must accept full blame for that, mcaryf. My 12 step group says so.

The line of sight between Crow's Nest and the Indian village is 14.14 miles (south end) to 15.3 (MTCFord). No doubt key to the whole event. Harump. When I try to do the line of sight myself, which GE allows you to do, it gets all blithery, so I need a better computer or a Cray. Try from Weir Point to the Reno field.

[mcaryf]

Hi DC

The views at a tilted angle, which I only recently realised you could do, are truly spectacular in mountainous country like Montana. Unfortunately the Google view is still effectively some way above a person standing on the point so you cannot truly say what could be seen but it still gives one hell of an impression of what Gibson or Custer might have looked at. I am trying to learn how to use my personal web space to upload images that I could then post on here. It may take me a few days!!

Have you discovered an easy way to do line of sight. I just draw lines and run the cursor along them monitoring the elevation reports?

Regards

Mike




Oh well did not take too long - what you see here is where Roger Darling thought Lt Gibson was on his scout for Benteen. In the foreground is South Reno Creek and in the background is the LBH valley.

Personally I do not think this is where Gibson was because he can just about see the Indian village from here but I will leave my further thoughts until another day.

I hope you enjoy the image it lots much better when you allow a bit of elevatio to show rather than straight overhead.

Regards

Mike


(Reduced in size so the board isn't blown out. -- DM)

[AZ Ranger]

Diane Is it because of the picture that this field got so wide making it harder for me to read or is it my computer?

Thanks

AZ Ranger

[Dark Cloud]

I dropped down to almost ground level and looked for the LBH camp, and not even the pins showed.

[harpskiddie]

From [about] where Gibson was able to see the valley, you can see toward the west - part of the highway - but you cannot see beyond the bluffs where the village was located, not even out toward the west where the Oglalas supposedly were camped. Does that correspond with your almost ground level view, DC??

As to Gibson's letter to Yates' son from April 1915, I'd place more emphasis on his 1876 letter, before his memory was affected by what he had heard in the lengthy interval between those dates. Participants always seemed to know more about what happened in later years because of what thay had heard and read in the meantime, something which has colored the history of the event [and many others throughout the years].

Gordie

[Dark Cloud]

I don't know what I see, but assuming the pins don't show if their elevation is below sight, I didn't even see that, but the resolution is low, kindly. But I'm still screwing around with this thing. It's just amazing. I had been perfectly fine looking down on places in my life, but now this. It's mcaryf's fault, finding a relevant and still entertaining use for it usurping my dawdling around. Typical British....... mumble..........

One thing we can now lay to rest is any theory that the land was nowhere near as bad as Godfrey and Benteen claimed. That's gruesome horse land if you ain't following the depressions, and they were not. I mean look at it. I will bow to AZRanger on this, if he thinks otherwise, but it looks both steep and tiring for fresh horses.

I'm also puzzled by Gibson's report. Frankly, I don't buy the later mistaken valley story whatsoever.

Benteen's remark about Indians being too swift for that address seems dead on. I expect a LOT of what he said will be verified by this gadget. You can see why and where Godfrey would lose sight of the Custer guys pretty quick.

[AZ Ranger]

DC A horse could get worn out in that country in a short time. A horse moving at a trot is at its best for saving energy. Any faster gait will quickly wear them out.

I also have a greater appreciation of why you would want to send out scouts even when in close proximity. It was the best terrain for individual fighters and the worst for Company level tactics. It wasn't till after the 1900's that the army got down to squad size units.

[Diane Merkel]

AZ,

I've reduced the size of Mike's photo. Any image greater than 750 pixels wide blows the board out beyond the ability to see without scrolling.

Diane

[harpskiddie]

Diane: Does that mean that you have "pinched in" the photo, or simply limited how much of the view is available? Quite frankly, the country did not strike me as being that stark and the ridges were not that sharp when I went over it.

I don't think my memory is that bad.

Gordie

[AZ Ranger]

Thanks Diane

AZ Ranger