Gibson's Letter about Benteen's Scout

[crzhrs]

From another forum:

Here is the actual text of the relevant part of the Gibson letter:

Benteen's battalion which was comprised of H, D, and K companies, was sent to the left about five miles to see if the Indians were trying to escape up the valley of the Little Big Horn, after which we were to hurry and rejoin the command as quickly as possible.

From Gibson's letter to his wife it seems the orders were to see if Indians were fleeing and report the info to Custer. Nothing about attacking them.

If Gibson is correct then the reason for sending Benteen and 3 companies was only a scout which wasted manpower that could have been used to assist Reno & Custer.

The Crow scouts with some of the White scouts could have done the job quicker, known where to look and report back to Custer faster than Benteen and 3 companies.

[mcaryf]

Hi Crzhrs

If you are going to lift part of a post of mine on another forum why didn't you lift all of it? I do call myself by the same name on the various forums I visit.

I went on to say that the words "see if" were clearly intended to mean "find out if" not simply observe.

If Gibson had seen Indians then all the "pitching in" activity reported as part of the orders by Benteen, Edgerly and Windolph would apply. The return to the command part was the default option if no Indians were seen. Since Gibson reported the LBH valley empty of Indians the default applied. Unfortunately the valley was not exactly empty of Indians so Gibson made some sort of error and Benteen subsequently tries to gloss over his subordinate's error by somewhat obfuscating the issue.

It would be absurd to suggest that Benteen was just to observe the Indians escaping to the South and then ride in the opposite direction to tell Custer "by the way Sir I must report that the Indians just escaped in the direction from which I have just come!"

It is clear that his mission would be to prevent any escape and that is why a Battalion was sent and not just a few scouts.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

From what point of Gibson's travel could he see the village as it stood? Show us on Google Earth. From that same point, could he see the LBH valley?

[Hostler]

Hello crzhrs.

You touched on a point I have always found odd about the Benteen scout or whatever it was called. If Benteen was to "pitch into" any Indians he came across, why didn't he have, or request any medical personnel in case of casualties? Also, there seemed to be no provision for re-supply from the pack train should a fight be in progress. It's strange that Fred didn't see to any of these arrangements as he was no stranger to fighting Indians. Maybe he thought he could send back for help if things developed, but that doesn't sound right either. Any comments would be appreciated.

Regards, Hostler

[mcaryf]

Hi Hostler

Benteen had already suggested to Custer that it would be better to keep the regiment together but had been told "you have your orders". I guess he did not want to argue any more. One of the medical staff was unwell that day so that might be why he did not go with Benteen. I do not think it would have been practical to split the pack train to give Benteen his own supplies as he was effectively going against the grain of the terrain so it would have been hard for any subset of the train to be near enough to be either useful or protected.

Finally I guess Benteen was to deal with any small satellite villages or fleeing remnants so perhaps Custer did not expect him to have much serious fighting.

Regards

Mike

[PhillyBlair]

crzhrs, in addition to Gibson's letter, Windolph was with Benteen and thought the same (p. 79 of "I Fought With Custer"):

"...And in justice to Custer I imagine that when he now sent Benteen and the three troops off to the hills on the southwest, it was sort of a half-hearted attempt to carry out Terry's orders to keep scouting on south of the Indian trail that led from the Rosebud westward to the Little Big Horn."

I'm not sure about Windolph's geography, but as someone who was there he thought it to be a possibility. I know there are more recollections than just these two and I can find them if this discussion heats up.

In the end, crzhrs, I agree with you that this was not a solid strategy at all. But given Terry's orders, Custer's past experience (especially at Washita) and his present belief regarding the number of hostiles, I think this could very well have been a "scouting expedition."

[Dark Cloud]

I think it pretty clear that Windolph is saying "looking back on it" before beginning your quote. He doesn't say he heard the orders or anything; it's just his supposition. His geography is fine. He thought it made sense after the passage of time as the common/accepted story was being patted into shape for salute material.

He could be totally correct, but it isn't really evidence of note. Stuff he heard. Makes sense. Eh.

I don't know why everyone is making a big deal out of having medical men or not. Most soldiers of the CW viewed them as Death's Receptionist anyway. It's not like they were much more than a nurse, and of highly dubious skill poking around your insides with their filthy hands and Neanderthal sense of hygiene, although nobody knew better. Set bones, remove bullets if possible without ripping new holes, saw bone and cauterize, whiskey ration and see what happens. Death, generally.

[mcaryf]

Hi Phillyblair

I think the distinction that needs to be made when you describe Benteen's role as a "scouting mission" is what he was supposed to do if he found any Indians.

Plainly if we were talking about the mission of Varnum and his Crows if he had discovered the presence of hostiles then his key job would be to report their presence to the command. In the case of Benteen if he had found hostiles then he too was to send a courier to Custer to tell him but he was also expected to use the strength he had with him to pitch into the hostiles.

Thus with Varnum's scouts the priority would be to get information back and probably not actually attack themselves whereas with Benteen, the priority would be equal between attacking and reporting. I think this is where a lot of confusion can be caused by characterising Benteen's mission purely as a scout. I am not even sure if the description reconnaisance in force really is strong enough, because the emphasis is still on the recce part. Part of the trouble is that we all know Benteen did not actually find Indians so it is all too easy to overlay what did happen with what was Custer's original purpose.

If you study the later writings of both Godfrey and Edgerly they thought the mission was to prevent Indians from escaping to the South up the valley of the LBH. Ironically of course this is eventually where the village went.

Hi DC

Actually Windolph did claim he had overheard the orders being given to Benteen as he had inadvertently approached Benteen to ask about a horse whilst Benteen was being given his orders.

Regards

Mike

[harpskiddie]

Windolph was also the star witness to Benteen's "Hadn't we better keep the whole regiment together?" It's very hard to tell what is Windolph and what is put in his mouth by others. When he supposedly told his story, he was an extremely old man. He says he enlisted in 1870, but the record shows it was 1872.

He was a private in 1876, a German immigrant who had joined the Army, he says, to learn English, which he could not speak, and because he couldn't find any other job. I have my doubts that he was ever near enough to any of the officers to hear anything, or that he would make so bold as to approach them except through one of his NCOs.

Gordie

[PhillyBlair]

Mike, you're right on about Edgerly and Godfrey later on. I believe Windolph's recollection likely represented what the "Average Joe" soldier felt as they toured the countryside. You also correctly recall Windolph claiming to have overheard Custer and Benteen, but I'm with Gordie on that one -- the story seems suspect (do we really believe that Windolph was going to press Benteen about a potential horse swap between Windolph and another soldier? -- that was what Windolph claimed. There's no way he had that type of access to Benteen at such a critical time). My point in citing Windolph was that he likely represented the feelings of the average private. I agree that Custer's plan likely included the "pitch into" provision. Windolph brings Terry's order back into the picture, so perhaps Custer had several things in mind when sending Benteen on his mission. As with all issues related to LBH, there is likely more than one correct answer -- depending upon the perspective.

[mcaryf]

Many people such as John Gray who want to characterise Benteen's mission as just a quick scout use the evidence from Lt Gibson's letter quoted above. However, there is a later letter written by Gibson to George D Yates the son of Captain Yates which makes the purpose of the mission crystal clear, I quote:

"His orders were ... to take his battalion to the left ... and if he found any Indians trying to escape up the valley of the Little Big horn, to intercept them and drive them back in the direction the village was supposed to be."

If you want to see a fuller version of the letter it is published in Kuhlmann's "Legend into History".

There is also confusion about why Custer would send a messenger (Martini) back up the trail to find Benteen. There are two possible answers to this, the first is that Custer might have seen two trails of dust on the back trail but the second and more likely is that Custer has just had an opportunity himself to look up the LBH valley from the bluffs. As he can see there are no Indians there he will know that Benteen did not find any and will be returning as ordered to the main trail.

I hope that this second letter from Gibson will resolve on this Bulletin Board at least what Benteen's mission really was.

I am working on a theory as to why Custer actually sent Benteen at the time and place he did and I will publish the results if my research proves successful and hopefully resolve all the issues concerning the reasons for this mission.

Regards

Mike

[PhillyBlair]

Mike,

Good stuff, but if you plan to publish something that will resolve anything about Custer's strategy you will be the first.

I have always believed that Benteen's orders were far more specific than he portrayed them to be at the RCOI. I started a thread a week or so ago about the officers' conference on the morning of June 25th (after Custer returned from the Crow's Nest). It's difficult to believe that anyone left that conference without knowing what the plan was, even if the plan was to be adapted along the way. When Benteen said, "There was no plan..." I simply can't believe that, and the evidence you raise proves the point. If subordinates knew the plan how is it possible that Benteen did not?

I believe I said this in that earlier thread, but it's important to note that the legend of Custer seeing nothing and believing nothing from the Crow's Nest is very dubious, at best. There is ample evidence (from Girard and others) that Custer saw the dust and believed the reports. From this he surmised that the village was on the run, hence his orders to Benteen. To me, Martin's run is best appreciated by looking at Kanipe's first. Kanipe was sent to the packs, but Tom Custer gave him the verbal order, "...and if you see Benteen tell him to come on..." Not knowing for certain that Kanipe would see Benteen, Martin was sent specifically to Benteen. I believe that both of the options you listed are correct -- Custer saw two dust trails, and he saw a big unified village in front of him. Hence the need for Benteen's aid. The original mission of Benteen was no longer necessary.

I will not say that the above is without holes, but it's my theory and I think we agree on the whole.

[elisabeth]

Not to divert from the main topic, but ... what do you make of the "across country" element of Kanipe's order? (Always assuming he reports it correctly.)

If that order was followed, by the time Martini could reach Benteen the packs should be off the main trail. So does this mean (1) that Custer has indeed seen two dust trails, and thus knows that Benteen and the packs are in visual contact -- or (2) that Custer intends Benteen to accompany the packs on their previously prescribed cross-country route?

The fact that Martini is sent rather than an intelligent pathfinder, and that he's sent along the backtrail, does suggest that Custer's seen evidence of Benteen's return to the trail, and also of the packs still being on it. But is the Martini order intended to supersede the Kanipe one, or merely to supplement it?

[PhillyBlair]

I think your questions demonstrate why we will never know for sure, Elisabeth. Personally, I like option #2 because the written order to Benteen seems to indicate that he is to personally ensure the arrival of the packs. By this time Custer would have seen the size of the village and (perhaps) known that Reno was already engaged (he at least knew that the Indians were not running, as per Girard's report to Cooke, who in turn informed Custer). Benteen's "scout" would no longer be necessary, but the ammunition would be -- we shouldn't forget the haste which Tom Custer added to his order to Kanipe.

My opinion regarding Martin is that his was both a supplemental order and a superseding order. Kanipe's order was vague regarding Benteen ("...if you see Benteen..."). Custer now needed to know for sure that Benteen's companies would be available to fight, and he had to ensure the safe arrival of the packs, which Benteen's additional force could help to secure.

Clear as mud, eh?

[mcaryf]

Hi Elisabeth

On reading Kuhlman "Legend into History" he actually beleives the story that Martini told to WA Graham. Namely that Custer did say "ammunition packs" but Cooke did not hear this (Custer facing towards Martini) so left out the word ammunition on the note.

Kuhlman's theory is that Custer had already decided that he would have to fort up somewhere and wanted Benteen and the pack train escort to fight their way through to him with just the ammo as that would be needed for a defensive battle. It certainly has some merit as a theory. I am still reading the book so have not got to the part where Custer fails to fort up. My doubt so far is as to why the ammunition packs would have to come to Custer rather than vice versa.

Regards

Mike