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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 10, 2023 5:09:50 GMT -6
I saw in the past you placed emphasis on Varnum seeing the Gray troops - you thinking it was way below Weir Point - not true (at least at the RCOI). He is yet another witness who places Custer close to Weir Hill and DeRudio's sighting... Varnum pg 156 RCOI "I saw the gray horse company of the regiment moving down along those bluffs. As I know now the gray horse company was with Custer's command. It was back from the actual edge of the bluffs. The head and the rear of the column were both behind the edge of the bluffs in a sort of hollow, and I just happened to catch sight of about the whole of the gray horse company. "Q. State as near as you can, how far that place was from you; not as you judged then, but as you became satisfied afterwards. A. That is difficult to answer. I think they were a little farther down than where we struck the bluffs we came up on them, and not quite so far down as the figure'2" in pencil on the map. They were probably three-fourths of a mile from where we were." "Q. State as near as you can how long it was after you saw that gray horse company till Capt Benteen joined Major Reno's command on the top of the Hill.. A . About an hour I think." Figure 2 is where Girard estimated Custer would be, 7 where DeRudio saw Custer on Weir Hill, and 8 is behind - where Martin says he was in the coulee, just after Custer went right then north. (5 & 6 are Weir Peak area - where the Reno/Weir advanced to) Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 10, 2023 5:38:03 GMT -6
It is also refreshing to know that it wasn’t Camp who coined the name “Weir HILL”…AKA 'the highest point in the vicinity' - Herendeen referred to it at RCOI. He was on site again in-between '76-'79. Camp did confirm its location succintly - it matches up quite well with all the goings on there. Nice to know why he investigated it with Martin, Curley and Kanipe. And a bit of the Hare...
Hare RCOI
Q) Does this point a little lower down? A) You can see a part of it from there. I can’t tell anything about this point “2” from the map. There is a point some distance below where Major Reno made his stand from which you can see the upper end of the village. {sounds like Martin/Camp?}
Herendeen
Q...how near was General Custer to his battlefield when Major Reno left the timber with his command? A) It would be just a guess, depending on how fast he was traveling. He ought to have been beyond Major Reno’s position on the hill, about half a mile. I should not think he was over two miles from the battlefield where he was found ... Q) If these lines represent General Custer’s trail, about how far would that be on this map? A) I know that country and from the point we called Weir’s Hill, there is a sort of swale runs down and it is nice traveling to the creek that runs in there. I was not over General Custer’s trail that season, but I was the next, but it was so obliterated that I don’t know exactly where it was.
Q) What is the character of the country towards “B”? A) I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity.
Q) That circular mark is to indicate the position Major Reno took. How far from there can you see the country towards “B”? A) To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography
Just for info, Weir Peaks is over a mile from reno's position.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2023 5:39:37 GMT -6
The scouts said they met Benteen closer to ford A...south of the entrenchment. Why not believe them?? "We met Benteen’s command just south of where they afterward entrenched." "We went back on the trail up Medicine Tail and south coulees and along bluffs past Reno hill and on up nearly to Ford A, where we met the pack-train…" "Hairy Moccasin says that from the bluffs he saw Reno’s fight and retreat, and that the three Crows met the other soldiers (Benteen), who came up and joined Reno after the retreat out of the valley. Hairy Moccasin pointed out the vicinity of Ford A as the place where they met Benteen." "We met some soldiers (Reno’s men) [actually Benteen’s command -HG] on our way to the pack train. We were up on the hill with Reno all the afternoon." Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography (p. 1032). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition. I think you place way too much faith in WMRH, but only with Curtis, who said Custer watched Reno lose and retreat for an hour. (and then somehow met Benteen near ford A to go back north to Reno). He is the only one so far not agreeing with south Coulee - and only part of them time. Nye-Cartwright has little/nothing to do with Cedar and getting to MTC- why do you keep tossing that in? On Edit: shoot - sorry your under it! Get better! I do believe them but not the timing which some associate with it. It's not the Standing Bear interviews www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/standing_bear3_little_big_horn.html so, i'm waiting for back of mind to pop it up. It's unfortunate the way in which Camp's notes were realised in tranches to various collections and little to no interest in any artifacts he may have held. One (at least) interview I have read, included his guidance to the interviewer and references the NC area. In MTC, things began to pop. Some Cheyennes moved out from the Holy Hat to resist as others such as Yellow Nose took up challenge. The Bigfoot Sioux and Wolftooth Cheyenne were hovering and closing and we have buffalo hunts returning to camp and stumbling into the military. Five companies arrive to MTC and respond to threats up the trail along MTC and to highground on east. That pretty neatly explains movement alont the coulee and to the north with the message being penned and sent off with Martin on his Roan Sorrel horse. The three Crows were unaware of cavalry progressing to Luce and Blummer/NC. Custer could not see diddly squat to the south across the river and headed off ala Curtis for GGH. Maguire's B crossing (which Hare for example thought was a watering place) exited into the village and was therefore not a suitable crossing. A crossing could have been forced there if needs be, by deploying a company of rifles to the high river bank for covering fire under the guns to left and right. Absolutely no doubt a crossing could have been made if that was ordered. Thus, Custer, Crows and as many companies as you like were stacked up along Deep Coulee in wait and see while Custer had a look and see from the the damn hill that got him killed. Greasy Grass Hill. Reno's gone from the valley. Sioux are pouring down the right bank from from Weir Peak and Cedar Coulee. If you want 400-800 cavalry rounds expended from Luce NC at a party of buffalo hunters with bows, good luck. There were plenty of targets once the Sioux flooded in from Reno Hill.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 10, 2023 7:32:54 GMT -6
Yep - locating Camp stuff is often annoyng, at least it is somewhat accesible these days with online scans etc. Stinks when they refer to some thing you can not get to! Ha - almost as bad as reading something cool, and then not being able to find it again! Camps map shows this stuff well - weir hill, cedar coulee, MTC, NC...good stuff! Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2023 8:36:49 GMT -6
Yep - locating Camp stuff is often annoyng, at least it is somewhat accesible these days with online scans etc. Stinks when they refer to some thing you can not get to! Ha - almost as bad as reading something cool, and then not being able to find it again! Camps map shows this stuff well - weir hill, cedar coulee, MTC, NC...good stuff! Scratching about for 'stuff' is a pain. Here's an example of Camp's third party interviews www.astonisher.com/archives/100voices/two_eagles_little_big_horn.html and there was guidance for the interviewer which is sometimes included with published work. There's another map... dammit... somewhere.... it'll turn up. In considering the attack east of the river, given the intention was to get into the valley and at the camp, rather than the cotton wool ideas of taking hostages or the soldiers riding the pont herds, itmay helpto step outside the local bubble of considerations. The army had spent decades attacking camps, driving off the population, destroying the property and mobility, and marching away into the sunset. The hostage taking idea is hocus pocus beypond taking the senior chiefs or their families and that is utter pot luck dice rolling. The intention was take and destroy the amp because it offered game-over scenario to the gathered tribes. One should expect that Custer, in hurry-up, repeated previously succesful tactics. Washita suceeded as a close run thing. It worked. Surviving Officer's say Custer did not plan the attack as far as they knew but Reno didn't know or understand truth when it bit his arse. However, it is a can of honor worms. I have yet to find an Indian account which can honestly be read or interpretted as related to Ford D, given that the Cheyenne's were camped opposite Deep Coulee. Regards. Good to chat.
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