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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 12:45:55 GMT -6
This battle just keeps giving (the tease). 5th Cavalry on Greasy Grass early July 1877..... Métseha! Virling K. Hart patrolling the Bighorn with a battalion of his regiment. Could it possibly be..... now let me see..... Well, of course, this was the time of the Nez Perce march when they nearly caught some mighty important generals hunting fish at Bottler's....... So, was 5th patrolling the Cheyenne, Bighorn or involved with Miles at post N o1, later named for Keogh? Maj. Hart, what I would give for a look at your diaryand notes of the summer of '77. Mind you, the reporter is a l'il bit off with Sioux surprise on LBH 1877, since it was the Cheyennes in greater part but let's not forget the Pawnee, who were doing the scouting for the army. All it takes is time........... and they thought that King was at Chicago. Heehaw.... I say old chap, that bayonet is looking a l'il rusty. Corporal, break out the Brasso!. I've been just dying to order that since '67!
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 12:47:15 GMT -6
Kuhlman's research map dated to 1939 by WorldCat. Enjoy. If Kuhlman knew Wolftooth then there is nothing, zero, zilch, in his files. If he knew JSiT, then i'm dutch and walk on my hands and took the surrender of Niemegen Bridge. What do you call a Dutchman walking on his hands? I have a question for the 'on the ground guys'. Custer advanced on Ford D. Cheyenne re-acted and stopped the move. That's the theory. So, we know beyond any doubt that the Cheyenne tipis sat on the B ford terrain. If you cannot accept that then stop reading. The theory must break into a party or parties of Cheyeenes seeing the cavalry at Ford D and going there. That is a huge problem. An exact repeat of Custer's views of the valley from the bluffs at Benteen's G spot and Weir Peaks. You cannot see through the trees at ground level. Custer could not see into the valley from the east until he climbed Greasy Grass Hill to view over the treeline. Try it when you are there. You can get a better partial view from Calhoun into the valley but the only commanding observation is from Greasy Grass Hill and ridge. Make it so, Data. Spock me! Spock me, do! Line of sight on a 19th Century battlefield. Do not mention pony herds. We know the Cheyennes who went out early to fight. Big Beaver. 1928 interview with Joe Blummer and 1930 map. Informant to Marquis. BB knew Woodenleg. He knew Tall Bull. Hogwash..We know Custer was never near ford D because good ole Peter Thompson saw him upriver from ford B. At that time Custer was trying to rape an Indian. And we know for sure that Good ole Pete would not tell a lie. So I will call the JSIT and raise with Watson and Thompson. Side note......Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see Rosebud Ah...... you nailedthat down then. I thought he might have been train spotting. I wonder if Gerry still tunes in from the Cloud?
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 13:11:09 GMT -6
So, I haven’t been to LBH (yet-but plan to go someday!). All I have to look at is google maps. When I look at the “deep ravine” trail it appears that there are about 44 markers along the trail (?). My question - is it possible that these soldiers killed on this (now) “deep ravine” trail were retreating from a possible Ford D crossing to LSH, or were these the last of the soldiers at LSH retreating to the “deep ravine”? Or a possible combination of both? Now some accounts state 26 to 28 soldiers found in “deep ravine” (I finally figure that must be the “coulee” or “ravine” that is mentioned in several accounts). Others say only 2 or 3 soldiers were found in the ravine. And as stated in a previous post – no archaeological excavation (that I know of) has recovered bodies in “deep ravine”. And, as was also mentioned before in a post here- “ Toward the end of the battle, approximately 40 soldiers broke out from Last Stand Hill, and were killed here, and on adjacent ridges.” “Soldiers came on foot and tried to fight through us into a deep gully, and this was the last of the fight and the men were killed in this gully.” - Tall Bull, Northern Cheyenne Also, I am not certain if both statements were made by Tall Bull? But whatever! But it does seem from statements that some soldiers were trying to retreat to a “last ditch” (or “last ravine”) effort, or just simply trying to survive in some way. If you dig out Nelson A. Miles recollections, on Hathi Trust he kinda explained what happened after he went there in 1878, with two dozen of the Chief's who did 7th Cavalry in. They were then scouting for him, Nelson Miles, and he made a somewhat more than thorough investigation over a few days as the Crow tribe celibrated being given the valley. Of course their Agency wasn't then, where it is today which causes massive confusions with the directions in which people think people were going and were, when they were there and going elsewhere, in 1877. Ft. Parker was given up in 1875, and the next Agency established at that time at Stillwater where it remained for a long time. The Agency today was established long after the battle with Sioux, Cheyenne and Arapaho. There ya go. Two chapters deal with the battle and the investigation and you want the second chapter. You know, Miles even entertained the scout Curley on the river steamer Y.F. Batchelor which was moored making deliveries to what was then called Ft. Custer. Indeed he did. I've read that riverboats logs. Miles came away from that jaunt and wrote a report of what he learnt together with a request that he head the Board Courtmartilling Reno and Benteen. Old Nelson is not too popular with this battle's historians but hell...... he was left guarding Jefferson Davis in 1865, and that may have affected his ballance. The report and letter, which were published by a newsspaper, disappeared from official channels. Fancy that..................
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 13:56:40 GMT -6
There is an official report here link by M cClernand who was EO for Montana Column, pretty much throughout the marches. He was with Ball and Roe in the recon of LBH made by 2nd Cavalry in late April - early May 1876, and the entry for 28/29 June 1876, indicates more or less, the entire expedition minus those lost fighting on 25-26 June, camped on Ford D. Good Lord................. You mean.............. oh yes, the entire retreating column of wounded, infantry, artillery, cavalry with and without horses, Terry's staff, Matt Carroll and remuda, packtrain, and supplies - camped on Ford D for a day in marching down the river to meet Far West. They took the time to gather and destroy the camp and possesions abandonded by the fleeing tribes. I wonder where they crossed the river at 5pm on the 29th June, when the march was resumed.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 14:03:52 GMT -6
Here link is a truly wonderful little bit of Crow and battle history. Who owned what and which land in the valley. The point entirely of the entire ball of wax. Curley's land is in his family's name..... brilliant. You all know where Curley lived, right?
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 14:18:22 GMT -6
Another puzzle piece - link the best made map of the valley dating to August 1879, by ex-Sgt. James E. Wilson of the Corps of Engineers, who was subsequently commisioned 2nd Lieutenant, 5th Infantry I think. My research isn't complete. His is a quite famous name but is he one one of the famous James E. Wilsons........... well, there's a question. Here is Wilson's mission report, from about page 2530 or so, fascinating stuff but that is a US Army map of the valley in 1879 and about as good as it gets. It is also a wonderful bit of artwork. anecdote - There was no Otter Creek above Garryowen in 1879. It resulted from much later work trenching the valley for irrigation, undertaken by Walter Graves, whose name and mapping of the river appears on the 1908 (originated 1891) U.S. Geo map of the valley published after work by Robert B. Marshall, who also chained out and mapped the markers put in place several months previously by (then) Capt. Owen J. Sweet and Company D, 25th Infantry.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 7, 2023 11:46:51 GMT -6
Hokahey! - WMRH got a creek! Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jul 8, 2023 2:15:29 GMT -6
Do you think Custer went up it? Or maybe Curley. The official creek is at N45.23385° W107.38176° and middling Wyola and Lodgegrass. LG is directly west of the Grey Blanket route out of the Wolf Mountains. Wyola has evolved from the Place they wait (for trains) into a seat of Global Power deity and noble cause. Doing great link. In terms of Custer's scout WMRH, I can only re-iterate what he told Edward S. Curtis in 1905-1908 to have the noted photographer completely foxed and jumping through hoops to verify rubbish. What WMRH is noted HERE on Curtis's addaption of the 1907 (1891) R.B. Marshall (Big Beaver II) map, showing the route of advance to the fence vis Greasy Grass Hill, where the three Crow scouts LEFT Custer. So many students of the battle funk this up, because Curtis's data is so little studied and considered, that further consideration of events is decidedly and root - pathetically sad. Custer was on Greasy Grass Hill try to see WTF was going on! Curtis had no particular axe to gring but was rather more than 30 years fervent in a mission from God to record the vanishing races although i'm sure that sent his artistic orientations into whackey. He was recording the Indian cultures, ways and oral history and by God did he get it from WMRH. So important did Curtis consider the Crow scout's military insights that he took the matter's divulged by WMRH, up, with PotUS and a quite serious investigation followed over the ensuing three years. The Crow tribe were powerful allies of the US against hostile tribes on the Plains and at LBH, the abandonment of Terry by his Crow scouts et al, excluding Curley, White Swan and Half Yellow Face, was eventually overlooked and forgotten during the continuing politics and military needs. Morning of 26th June 1876, under the auspices and leadership of WMRH, Terry's contingent of Crow scouts enrolled with with Gibbon, abandoned Montana column en masse and returned to the new Crow Agency at Stillwater. Where they got into a firefight with the camp guards on the lookout for Sioux pont herd raiders. The tribe were told that White Swan, Half Yellow Face and Curley were killed with Custer and some of the related family - never got over that shock - even when the three men eventually returned and............ WMRH fled for the hills to escape the jokes, ire and outright hatred towards his foolishness. Let's ring a bell. Ding...... ding...... ding....... dong!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 8, 2023 19:11:02 GMT -6
Good to see all those drainages you say don't exist are on this 1879 map.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 9, 2023 13:44:01 GMT -6
Just seen Biden's helo fly over on his way to CIII.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 9, 2023 13:44:43 GMT -6
It's a lovely map.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 9, 2023 22:07:22 GMT -6
It certainly took Curtis to get something different from the scouts…in various other accounts they meshed with Martin & Camp, Curley, especially re: Custers use of Cedar Coulee, quite well. I was able to get a decent take on Curtis and scouts via Viola’s chapter in his book - thanks!
Hairy Moc
“Custer’s command as well as Bouyer and the 4 Crows saw Reno’s fight in the valley. Then Custer and command turned down south coulee into Medicine Tail Coulee and went down toward river and out onto flat. … We went back on the trail up Medicine Tail and south coulees and along bluffs past Reno hill and on up nearly to Ford A, where we met the pack-train…”
“Custer was ahead of his command a short distance behind us. Custer yelled to us to stop, then told us to go to the high hill ahead (the high point just north of where Reno later entrenched). From here we could see the village and could see Reno fighting. He had crossed the creek…. We four scouts turned and charged north to where Custer was headed for. Three of us stopped to fire into the village. We saw no more of Curley after that. I don’t know where he went. When we met Custer he asked, “How is it?” I said, “Reno’s men are fighting hard.”…
WMRH
“Custer and his brother went to the right of us and halted on a small hill. His troops were moving forward below him. Custer turned around as he reached the top of the hill and waved his hat, and the soldiers at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted. Custer then proceeded on up the ridge and his men followed. They were moving rapidly, and the scouts were forced to gallop their ponies sometimes to keep up with them. At a certain point on the ridge they turned to the right and rode down a coulee in a northern direction. The scouts took up a position on the high bluffs where we could look down into the Sioux camp. As we followed along on the high ground, Custer had come down Medicine Tail Creek and was moving toward the river.”
Goes Ahead
“We saw Reno’s battle and went back south along bluff and met Benteen’s command. We three Crows did not see Custer after he turned down the coulee to right.”
“ When they had arrived at about the point where Lieutenant Hodgson’s headstone was placed later, the three Crow scouts saw the soldiers dismounting in front of the Dakota camp and thought the enemy were “too many.” Close to where Reno and Benteen later in the day were attacked by the Dakotas on the ridge of hills above the river, the three Crow scouts were left behind and Custer’s command went down the draw toward the lower ford on the run. Custer had told the Crow scouts to stay out of the fight and they went to the left along the ridge overlooking the river while he took his command to the right”
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2023 4:23:32 GMT -6
It's refreshing to be going over this basic stuff again. You are wrong point blank with Cedar Coulee but this is the nature of study.
Beyond this is another of the misnomers wrapped around and folded into Benteen's battalion. The Three Crow's met Benteen's advance to Weir and not the climb to Reno Hill. The idea that the three Crow scouts directed Benteen up onto the bluffs is a complete rubbish. Those who rationalise it, are those who cannot face reality and study the battle to further the interests of themselves and those they worship to adore.
All Reno had to do was urgently mount weir peak with a guidon and signal we are here and staying here. No massacre. No slaughter. No 214 dead.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 10, 2023 4:48:28 GMT -6
Johnson 41
I'm a bit under the weather with a recovery from Covid which has me sideways. The Walter M. Camp map used in his interviews has been elusive and I was slightly off the trail. Hardorff published one at p70 in Cheyenne Memories but it doesn't indicate the 'E' location. Therefore I arrived to his thinking through the published and anecdoted notes. I'm thinking at the moment that it may heve been an interview with standing Bear. It's relevant and important in indicating that Camp was aware of evidence on NC ridge before his death and the later (1928) discovery of stuff by Joe Blummer who also found stuff south of the railway line in the valley.
I'm not on best form but will pull the thing together into its topic when I can because it is relevant to Camp's thinking and his journey with the research. His was a voyage of discovery and he did not trust Godfrey. He knew to look for evidence on the ground and was photographed with Godfrey on SSR collecting relics. Walter Camp was instrumental in locating the lost Slim Buttes battleground and having it marked. There is a small research paper somewhere documenting this endeavour with Anson Mills over a number of years. Camp was persistant. The first book I thought of for the map was Memories but could I find it..... sheesh. Stuck in a corner of the junk room under a ton of Beos and Haiku OS progarmming books. Life................. 's a female doggie.........
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 10, 2023 5:02:47 GMT -6
The scouts said they met Benteen closer to ford A...south of the entrenchment, and before there was 1.
Why not believe them??
"We met Benteen’s command just south of where they afterward entrenched."
"We went back on the trail up Medicine Tail and south coulees and along bluffs past Reno hill and on up nearly to Ford A, where we met the pack-train…"
"Hairy Moccasin says that from the bluffs he saw Reno’s fight and retreat, and that the three Crows met the other soldiers (Benteen), who came up and joined Reno after the retreat out of the valley. Hairy Moccasin pointed out the vicinity of Ford A as the place where they met Benteen."
"We met some soldiers (Reno’s men) [actually Benteen’s command -HG] on our way to the pack train. We were up on the hill with Reno all the afternoon."
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography (p. 1032). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
I think you place way too much faith in WMRH, but for some reason only with Curtis, who said Custer and his officers sat and watched Reno lose and retreat for an hour. (and then somehow still met Benteen NEAR FORD A to go back north to Reno, although Varnum (see below) says it was about an hour when Benteen joined..). He is the only one so far not agreeing with south coulee - and only part of the time.
Nye-Cartwright has little/nothing to do with Cedar and getting to MTC (other then the mouth of cedar being across from it) why do you keep tossing that in?
On Edit: shoot - sorry your under it! Get better!
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