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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 4, 2023 14:31:05 GMT -6
Q. The men killed between "G" and "H" -- were they killed in fighting their way from "H" up toward "G", at the start of the fight, or in running from "G" toward the river at the last part of the fight?
A. [They] were fighting from "G" [Custer Hill] to "H" [Deep Ravine] at last of fight.
Q. In the last stand at "G" did the soldiers all fight to the last, or did some try to break away and escape?
A. Some of them tried to getaway by jumping over the high banks at places between "G" and "H".
Q. At what part of the battlefield were you stationed?
A. This witness went around the north and west side of the long ridge, to a point west of "G", being nearer to "G" than to "H". The fighting was a little too warm for him there, and he moved down nearer to "H" and was there at the finish. It was at this latter place that he saw a few of the soldiers jump over the banks.'
Lights' Story of the Battle A Minneconjou Sioux's account of the Battle of the Little Bighorn
From an interview with Sewell B. Weston in June 1909. This interview was arranged by Sewell B. Weston at the request of Walter M. Camp,
Note not sure who put in the [ ] notes -maybe WMC - but always a danger to let others think for you! They were often enough wrong.
Also not sure what map they were referring to. Seems like Camps.
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 5, 2023 12:17:22 GMT -6
So, don’t know if this map has been included anywhere on the forum. But I was searching around and found this in a newspaper article written on November 16th, 1877 (page 3) in the New York herald (so it the map was made less than 1 ½ years after the battle). Found it here- chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030313/1877-11-16/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1876&index=2&rows=20&words=CUSTER+Map&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1881&proxtext=custer+maps&y=11&x=17&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1It states that it was “A Map Partly Suggested and Corrected by Chief Sitting Bull”. Now if you account for the change in the course of the river over 147 years (further east than it is today), it looks fairly accurate when compared to a satellite view on google maps of the LBH (and where Calhoun and Keogh were found). What is interesting is that it appears that Custer tried a crossing at Ford D. On some maps I have seen it appears that Custer may have arrived at the river further north and then worked his way south down the river for a short while. However, when the Native Americans attacked from across the river, Custer and his troops made a “beeline” retreat to last stand hill. Notice the map indicates 26 men killed along that route. It further looks like that retreat was not made through "deep ravine", but in a coulee somewhat north of deep ravine and directly up to LSH.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 5, 2023 17:20:50 GMT -6
think the '26 killed beeline' is supposed to be the last retreat...to Deep ravine - it seems to end there. I think many witness that as the last of the fight. www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=86800“ Toward the end of the battle, approximately 40 soldiers broke out from Last Stand Hill, and were killed here, and on adjacent ridges.” “Soldiers came on foot and tried to fight through us into a deep gully, and this was the last of the fight and the men were killed in this gully.” - Tall Bull, Northern Cheyenne
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 5, 2023 18:49:34 GMT -6
Also, from the weblink- www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=86800“In the ravine I found most of the troop, (Co. E) who had used the upper sides for a kind of breastwork, falling to the bottom as they were shot down . . . In burying the men the stench was so great . . . so we had to pile large chunks of earth upon them broken off from the sides of the ravine . . . ” - Major Thomas M. McDougal, Company B, 7th Cavalry May 19, 1919 “Several of these 28 men of Company E were shot in the back. From the position they were hit it was very easy for the Indians to crawl up behind them . . . and kill them.” - Lieutenant Luther R. Hare, Co. K, 7th Cavalry “ . . . there was a Sioux in the deep gully with the 28 soldiers first [we] thought he was with the soldiers, but we later found he . . . followed the soldiers closely.” Medicine Man, Oglala Lakota 1912 Now, it seems improbable to me that 26 (or 28) guys would all decide at the same time to desert LSH and literally “make a run for it” (looks like about 700 feet or more from LSH to “deep ravine” on google satellite). Remember no horses were found with these guys. It seems to me much more likely that they were “lead” (maybe by a sergeant). Maybe they left their horses at LSH (to be used as cover for those guys) and were ordered to make a “run for it” and form some sort “skirmish line” of fire in a coulee or “deep ravine” (at least it would be some sort of cover – which is better than the no cover which they had on LSH)? So maybe a last-ditch (in actuality it was the “last-ditch”) tactic to establish some sort of crossfire? So, maybe these guys are still in a gully or ravine somewhere since I don't think any bodies were discovered by archeologists in "deep ravine"? I don’t know. Just an interesting (possible) scenario?
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 5:17:38 GMT -6
Could be! There's a LOT of notions as to what took place there. Someone (maybe Kanipe?) describes the claw marks of men trying to get out, like they were trying to pass 'over' or through the ravine (??). Shoot - an Indian, I think Red Hawk, talked about finding 8 intact soldier bodies 'at the mouth of the ravine' like a month after the battle. Here's an interesting take by Indian witnesses...{Hokahey! A Good Day to Die!} Included is Camp's map via an Edgerly interview (on edit - also marked Harmon and Rooney - he has another labeled "Interview with Mc Dougall 6/26/09" focused on Reno Corral). He created other linen(?) maps with what appears to be all the markers numbered and surveyed- annoying to read though. I posted on the other day covering DR.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 5:21:48 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 7:15:58 GMT -6
There is another article, attributed to the Cherokee Advocate from slightly later and M.V. Sheridan's trip. I haven't a link to hand and the day is a bit wooley. I'll pop it up when I can. It's a discerningly interesting read along the same lines as your link. Way back, I looked into the weather and hail as big as goose eggs was not uncommon, and there simply was no way to dig six feet into the ground. If they had been able to then the surrounding terrain would have washed away.
Camp's Blue map is not the one sent out in his mailed questionaires but is close. The questionaire maps had 'E' indicating NC ridge area. It's published somewhere, I almost certainly have the book, so.... i'll dig out. Who knows, maybe i'll find 28 bodies.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 7:27:35 GMT -6
lbha.proboards.com/thread/525/sherman-sheridan-tour-1877Still thumbing for Camp's other map...... It kinda shows how his research was a work in progress. Blummer's finds on those ridges obviously impinged his later thinking. Voyage of discovery, rather like John Stands in Timber. In 1926, there was no Ford D theory but as soon as 7th Cavalry did exactly Ford D theory at 50th Anniversary, Bob's your Aunties nine dollar note. anecdote. Later, after M cDougall's interview with Camp, he vociferously denied that it had happened. That is M cDougall denied meeting Camp, to W.A. Graham, I believe which is a can of worms unless it was done through the post.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 7:56:35 GMT -6
Kuhlman's research map dated to 1939 by WorldCat. Enjoy. If Kuhlman knew Wolftooth then there is nothing, zero, zilch, in his files. If he knew JSiT, then i'm dutch and walk on my hands and took the surrender of Niemegen Bridge. What do you call a Dutchman walking on his hands? I have a question for the 'on the ground guys'. Custer advanced on Ford D. Cheyenne re-acted and stopped the move. That's the theory. So, we know beyond any doubt that the Cheyenne tipis sat on the B ford terrain. If you cannot accept that then stop reading. The theory must break into a party or parties of Cheyeenes seeing the cavalry at Ford D and going there. That is a huge problem. An exact repeat of Custer's views of the valley from the bluffs at Benteen's G spot and Weir Peaks. You cannot see through the trees at ground level. Custer could not see into the valley from the east until he climbed Greasy Grass Hill to view over the treeline. Try it when you are there. You can get a better partial view from Calhoun into the valley but the only commanding observation is from Greasy Grass Hill and ridge. Make it so, Data. Spock me! Spock me, do! Line of sight on a 19th Century battlefield. Do not mention pony herds. We know the Cheyennes who went out early to fight. Big Beaver. 1928 interview with Joe Blummer and 1930 map. Informant to Marquis. BB knew Woodenleg. He knew Tall Bull.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 10:15:45 GMT -6
Here's the 1877 Cherokee Advocate stuff... The Cherokee Advocate OKGenWeb www.okgenweb.net › adjul74 WHERE CUSTER MET DEATH September 5, 1877—Cherokee Advocate—Custer’s Battlefield, Little Big Horn River, M. T. July 25—The ignorance of army officers, scouts, and guides is demonstrated in their pretended knowledge of this historical battle ground, which knowledge, from my own experience and investigation I find to be greatly at variance with the facts. In nothing were they further at sea than concerning its locality. Some held that the distance from Tongue river, near the mountains, did not exceed twenty-five miles; other estimated it a thirty, and none exceeded thirty-five; but we, after two long days ride from the hand of the Little Horn in the mountains (a point much nearer than the tongue River at the present cantonment of the Fifth Cavalry), Carefully compute the distance to be at least forty-five miles.... ________________________________________ On edit: Interesting side-note - soldier "Kid" Hoffman got shot in 1879 while painting a grave tablet at LBH - (likely not the guy in the pic) but he is supposedly entombed in the base of the monument
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 10:25:37 GMT -6
I'll call your JSIT and raise you 1 Rickey... Thought his note on the map was...fun. And 1 Grant...path along Greasy Grass Ridge...via Camp... I say - couldn't we do Ford B AND D? We do bluffs (Martin, Kanipe, DeRudio, Scouts, Benteen etc) and 2nd ridge to the east (Godfrey, Gall, JSIT, Benteen)... Even Benteen changed his tune!! and 2 fords is easier. Terry in his report hedged his bets and called Custer's path a circle! (some else called it a "ruined circle")... "...His trail from the point where Reno crossed the stream, passes along and in the rear of the crest of the bluffs on the right bank for nearly or quite three miles; then it comes down to the bank of the river, but at once diverges from it, as if he had unsuccessfully attempted to cross; then turns upon itself, almost completing a circle, and closes" Too fun!! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 10:36:16 GMT -6
Also...1 Technical Report 124...
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 10:59:53 GMT -6
This possibly another Camp map that HR refers to..."E" on NC Ridge (where Light says soldiers next/first appeared after Reno). Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 12:19:04 GMT -6
Here's another for the 2 ford approach, based on Indian testimony and a sketch, - William Philo Clark... "After driving Col. Reno's forces across the river, most of the Indians left his immediate front and went down to join those who were fighting Gen. Custer's column-which came down and made an attempt to cross at the mouth of the little stream (Medicine Tail?) and finding it impossible, turned up the ridge, then turned again as the trails leading down to the ford were reached." (...?) not mine. Attachments:
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 6, 2023 12:37:38 GMT -6
So, I haven’t been to LBH (yet-but plan to go someday!).
All I have to look at is google maps.
When I look at the “deep ravine” trail it appears that there are about 44 markers along the trail (?).
My question - is it possible that these soldiers killed on this (now) “deep ravine” trail were retreating from a possible Ford D crossing to LSH, or were these the last of the soldiers at LSH retreating to the “deep ravine”? Or a possible combination of both?
Now some accounts state 26 to 28 soldiers found in “deep ravine” (I finally figure that must be the “coulee” or “ravine” that is mentioned in several accounts). Others say only 2 or 3 soldiers were found in the ravine. And as stated in a previous post – no archaeological excavation (that I know of) has recovered bodies in “deep ravine”.
And, as was also mentioned before in a post here-
“ Toward the end of the battle, approximately 40 soldiers broke out from Last Stand Hill, and were killed here, and on adjacent ridges.”
“Soldiers came on foot and tried to fight through us into a deep gully, and this was the last of the fight and the men were killed in this gully.” - Tall Bull, Northern Cheyenne
Also, I am not certain if both statements were made by Tall Bull? But whatever!
But it does seem from statements that some soldiers were trying to retreat to a “last ditch” (or “last ravine”) effort, or just simply trying to survive in some way.
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