Custer's Orders

[fred]

Pure and simple. Did George Custer disobey the written orders he received from General Terry?

Yes, he did.
No, he did not.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Tricia]

I'm gritting my teeth as I answer this, but I honestly don't think GAC physically disobeyed Terry's orders. It's taken me a long time to come to that conclusion--but I think there was enough rope in them for GAC to hang himself. That said, I don't think he followed the exact intent of them ... still, I'd love to see your conclusions about Tullock's Creek (hint); if there's a problem with the Terry orders, I think that's where they exist.

Glad to see you back at the board!
LMC

[fred]

Ah-h-h, Leyton, I never left. I am just a bit more circumspect, that's all.

(Maybe I will dump the TC thing into your e-mail; it would be a hoot & the arguing would really begin then!)

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

Fred:

How about Custer "ignored" them because of Terry's out to do as he saw fit.

Custer's statement: "Here's where Reno made the mistake of his life . . . he'd have made a name for himself if he'd pushed on after them."

That may be all we need to know about Custer's rationale "make a name for himself."

If Custer was the first to hit the Indians he would be given credit for the victory, not Terry, not Gibbons, or anyone else, Custer.

That may be the reason he didn't have Tullock's Creek scouted or even reported ANY info back to Terry. If Terry knew of the new info he may have altered the entire battle plan . . . even ordering Custer to wait for the rest of the combined command . . . thus robbing Custer of "making a name for himself."

Still aborbing the rest of the article . . . but it seems clear Custer wanted it all for himself:

"Now Custer, don't be greedy, wait for us."

"No I won't."

[fred]

Horse--

I got you here! Yea or nay; no gray!

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

Fred:

I modified my post.

If you want to know if Custer ignored his "orders"

Yes, not only did he fail to have Tullock's Creek scouted, he failed to send anyone to Terry to inform him of new info.

[Tricia]

Oh, come on, Crz ... you don't really believe the joke with Gibbon was anything other than that? I think that exchange--like all of the visions and flag-toppling-overs--took on a greater significance when it turned out Custer had died ...

[crzhrs]

I believe Brisbin who was along on the Far West stated to Terry that he had no confidence in Custer and urged Terry to lead the 7th.

Bradley later stated that he knew Custer was not going to wait for anyone else and get to the Indians first. I'm not sure if he was saying that as a compliment because of Custer's ability to find & fight Indians or as criticism.

Throw in Gibbon's "Don't Be Greedy . . ." and things just added up to many knowing that Custer was going to do what he saw fit, even if he meant "tweaking"--some would call it disobeying--his orders. As he said earlier to a friend . . . he would cut away from Terry as soon as he could.

[Tricia]

True ... and of course those brags that he would break away from Terry, after the good general succeeded in getting him back on the Summer campaign. But I still tend to think the thing with Gibbon was nothing more than joshing about.

Fred--sorry for getting off the subject, per se, though I think GAC's mindset--if it can be determined with some accuracy over our desire to speculate upon it--might throw some light on his willingness/mental ability to follow Terry's instructions. I'd love to read your article! Also, I hope the Yankees drop dead--k-pow.

--LMC

[fred]

Horse--

Did you score it in the poll?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

Fred:

I just did . . .

The article is enlightening to say the least, very valid points, especially ". . . the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly enclosed by the two columns that their escape will be impossible."

Terry's plan obviously was to get the Indians in the middle of different commands giving them few options.

Custer's "rush" after the Indians made that impossible. Terry wanted info to alter his plans if need be. Hindsight tells us sending someone back to Terry with that info may not have saved Custer. It would have been very difficult for Terry to get his command there in time.

HOWEVER, he could have dispatched a messenger to Custer, which would have moved much faster than an entire command, telling him to wait for new instructions.

Custer's failure may not be his division of command but failure to inform Terry and rush after Indians that turned out to be stronger than his divided command could handle.

[Hostler]

I'm with Leyton McLean on this one. I don't think he disobeyed the orders in a LEGAL sense, but he disobeyed the intent of what Terry wanted him to do. I still maintain when he turned from the Rosebud up Davis Creek the die was cast. That decision was the one that put him at odds with Terry's desires and everything from that point on including the Tullock's Fork thing was a direct result of that decision. He was not going to share any glory with anyone else. A brevet or a coffin.......long story short, he didn't disobey the orders.

[Diane Merkel]

Here's a link to the orders if anyone wants to read them again: www.lbha.org/Research/terryord.htm

Upon reading them again, I had to vote "yes." Terry gave Custer a generous amount of wiggle-room in the event of unexpected circumstances, but the game plan was fairly well spelled out and Custer didn't play by the rules.

Dying thought: "I should have waited."

[fred]

hostler said:

I don't thing he disobeyed the orders in a LEGAL sense, but he disobeyed the intent of what Terry wanted him to do. I still maintain when he turned from the Rosebud up Davis Creek the die was cast. That decision was the one that put him at odds with Terry's desires and everything from that point on including the Tullock's Fork thing was a direct result of that decision...long story short, he didn't disobey the orders.

Hostler--

This is not about legalities as we know them today; this is about military orders. You have obviously not served in the military. It is all about intent, the commander's intent. You do not go into any military operation looking to squeeze around the boss' orders: "Oh... I thought you meant." There is none of that in the army. Diane was kind enough to post Terry's original order. Please, read it carefully, apply it to what you know Custer did and did not do, then tell me if the spirit of the order was followed. Nobody cares about parsing legalities on the battlefield (in this regard); it is all about what the commander wants.

I totally agree w/ your comment about Davis Creek. Tullock's should have been "explored" before that turn-off. And it would not have taken much to do it; nor would Custer need to have waited. Have I spilled the beans about whether I think Custer disobeyed his orders or not?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Hostler]

Hi Fred. No, I meant exactly what I said. He didn't disobey the orders in a legal sense that he could have been prosecuted for. Terry left too much wiggle room as has already been stated. By the way, I spent a four year hitch in the Navy and six years in the Army National Guard after that. So I am familiar with intent of orders and so on. I don't believe a military court would or could have convicted him of disobedience of orders. At least not the written orders he got from Terry. He may have gotten verbal orders that were never recorded but there is no good evidence that I have seen for that.

Regards, Hostler