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Post by oglallah on Jun 25, 2023 14:22:46 GMT -6
This post is in remembrance, on this 147th anniversary, of the Native Americans who died trying to preserve their way of life not only at LBH but also at Wounded Knee and other places. Also to the US officers and soldiers who gave their lives to advance their way of life. Lest we forget!
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 26, 2023 3:53:40 GMT -6
Rain and flooding shutdown the reenactment Sat.& Sun.. Discussion of artifacts found nearer to Willie's Bend than previously thought, at LBHA Conference, last week. Ford D, hmm.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 26, 2023 4:00:09 GMT -6
Thoughtful post oglallah. Brings complaining and fear caused by our border crisis into interesting focus.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 1, 2023 3:32:11 GMT -6
Rain and flooding shutdown the reenactment Sat.& Sun.. Discussion of artifacts found nearer to Willie's Bend than previously thought, at LBHA Conference, last week. Ford D, hmm. Regards, Tom Sounds like you might not have been real impressed with the Ford D evidence.... or lack there of. Rosebud Wrong Rosebud, I have been on top of Ford D for quite sometime. I did mis Donovan's presentation, but heard the highlights. Hope you are well. Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 2, 2023 9:12:44 GMT -6
Scott's "Walk Around the Boundary". As I said I was not at the presentation. Steve Andrews was, I know you know him. The finds align with JSIT's tale to Mary Liberty. Serial #'s? Maybe a blow to the traditional. Bodies were found north of what is now US Hwy. 212, as I am sure you kknow.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 2, 2023 13:40:30 GMT -6
If you dont trust JSIT Justin, then how much do you trust the word of Wolftooth, he was there and drew a map for JSIT, was this map also wronge?
Ian
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Post by justinterested on Jul 2, 2023 19:13:55 GMT -6
I have to say that I did not find the evidence of bodies north of 212 very compelling at all. I checked as much as I could, including Donohue, but I didn't get anything concrete back.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 3, 2023 11:23:38 GMT -6
Here is what I recall from the presentation. The location is near Willy Bend's house. 5 carbines and 1 Remington Rolling block were identified. I will get more details if someone wants them. It is in alignment with JSIT's account.
It appears to be a detail of at least five enlisted men and one officer. There were 6 known Remington Rolling Blocks identified at the battle.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 3, 2023 11:25:31 GMT -6
Rosebud
I have no issue with you and I will read your full post before commenting in the future.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 3, 2023 11:45:15 GMT -6
Regarding the lack of evidence in the Ford Ds area Douglas Scott covered that in a field presentation. Agricultural practices removed a timber area, and Doug presented a picture. Materials were removed to fill the new entrance roadway, which leads to speculation of what is buried in the new entrance roadbed.
I think that reaching and crossing Ford Ds was a desire of Custer's that failed. It failed because Cheyenne met him head-on. He went from offense to retrograde and never went on defense. If he went on defense, we should have seen evidence of 5 companies in mutual support with overlapping fields of fire.
The Ford Ds theory, as I see it is that Custer was attempting to cross the river downstream of Deep Ravine. Gordon Harper called it Ford Ds since there are many fords from Deep Ravine to where the river is near the Willy Bend house location. I believe it was Colt 45 that stated under fire a line formation crossing would be preferred to column formation. From Willy Bend's house across to the Old Elks property would be a reasonable place to cross in line.
The problem was that the Indians knew it and met Custer before he could get there. The retreat line runs up the old entrance road where artifacts, including a revolver, were found. It continues across Cemetery Ridge to LSH and another line from Cemetery Ravine and Deep Ravine.
Regards
Steve
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Post by noggy on Jul 4, 2023 0:15:55 GMT -6
If you dont trust JSIT Justin, then how much do you trust the word of Wolftooth, he was there and drew a map for JSIT, was this map also wronge? Ian I'll side a little with @rosebud here, at least in so far as I don't think one has to believe all or nothing when it comes to testimonies/stories. The part of the NAs allegedly knowing they were going to be attacked but just let it happen as some ice cold, grand plan for instance make seems like utter BS to me. I don't believe that for a second. The part about GAC's movements is on the other side something I at least can see happening in this realm As far as taking it as gospel...well, I'm atheist so no. Plus I'm a mistrustful (right word?) bastard, ofc. Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2023 0:57:54 GMT -6
Well Geir, everything is is getting confusing here, but that happens on these boards, the only point I am trying to make is the wolftooth map is the best indicator on custers movements, he was actually there, but I don't want to go over all the reasons why he should be trusted.
I agree a lot of NA accounts are questionable as some of the soldier ones too, but can anyone find me a better map and account then wolthtooth? Remember, he was relating his account to his step grandson in his own tongue for no personal gain.
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Post by noggy on Jul 4, 2023 2:46:08 GMT -6
Well Geir, everything is is getting confusing here, but that happens on these boards, the only point I am trying to make is the wolftooth map is the best indicator on custers movements, he was actually there, but I don't want to go over all the reasons why he should be trusted. I agree a lot of NA accounts are questionable as some of the soldier ones too, but can anyone find me a better map and account then wolthtooth? Remember, he was relating his account to his step grandson in his own tongue for no personal gain. My point was merely that it is not about trusting everything or nothing. That is why I saud the part about GAC's movements seem plausible to my, the part about letting the US troops attack not so much. Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2023 12:48:58 GMT -6
I think that the Custer battalion or two battalions?, were shot at once they moved down MTC, certainly by the amount of cartridge finds on Luce would suggest this, and sniping would have carried on right the way across to BRE, but the level of this sniping and the amount of Indians doing the firing wouldnt be enough to deter the companies on rout north, otherwise they would have either held onto a ridge line and defended or moved back south. The Indians were at this point either too weak to stop the soldiers from moving north or they hid their hand until they had the soldiers just where they wanted them.
Ian
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 5, 2023 12:33:13 GMT -6
Here is what I recall from the presentation. The location is near Willy Bend's house. 5 carbines and 1 Remington Rolling block were identified. If this is true then someone still has these rifles. Who has them? Who found them? Who sold them? Who did they sell them to? I will get more details if someone wants them. It is in alignment with JSIT's account. It appears to be a detail of at least five enlisted men and one officer. There were 6 known Remington Rolling Blocks identified at the battle. Regards Steve I am always skeptical until proof is shown. I hope this is not like the horse and rider found on Rosebud Creek that turned out to be a dough boy playing a joke. Like I said before....I am always open to different points of view as long as there is evidence. Speculation does not cut it. I wonder why Indians would kill 6 soldiers and not take their rifles? Seems a little strange to me. If you ask me..... It sounds more like someone stumbled onto one of the garbage dumps used by the Agency when they helped to clean up the battlefield. In the early 20's broken rifles would not be a treasure. Now anything is a treasure. Rosebud Justin The full article is in the Greasy Grass Vol 39, May 2023. It also describes four Indian casings within 130 yards of the 17 military cases. Additionally, a landowner had found 2 bullets and 6 Indian casings in the same area. Of course, your opinion is just as valid, but it is also consistent with a small detail of soldiers going to this location and being engaged by Indians. JSIT states the same locations based on participant accounts. Regards Steve
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