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Post by herosrest on Jul 6, 2023 7:44:33 GMT -6
Well Geir, everything is is getting confusing here, but that happens on these boards, the only point I am trying to make is the wolftooth map is the best indicator on custers movements, he was actually there, but I don't want to go over all the reasons why he should be trusted. I agree a lot of NA accounts are questionable as some of the soldier ones too, but can anyone find me a better map and account then wolthtooth? Remember, he was relating his account to his step grandson in his own tongue for no personal gain. Your point is that Wolftooth drew the map, or sat with Timber and they did it it ointly. For the love of God. Check out Kuhlman's timeline map!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 6, 2023 13:00:05 GMT -6
Justin The full article is in the Greasy Grass Vol 39, May 2023. It also describes four Indian casings within 130 yards of the 17 military cases. Additionally, a landowner had found 2 bullets and 6 Indian casings in the same area. Of course, your opinion is just as valid, but it is also consistent with a small detail of soldiers going to this location and being engaged by Indians. JSIT states the same locations based on participant accounts. Regards Steve Thanks Steve. So I guess you would agree that there are no rifles.... No one has those rifles, There is no proof of any sale of those rifles. There is no proof that those rifles ever actually existed. I would expect there is a better possibility of unusable rifles that were destroyed and left by the soldiers after the battle. It was common practice to totally destroy or break up any weapon so the Indians could not fix them and use them later. 100 years after the battle, these busted up rifles might look like evidence that might not be the true story. 17 military cases? Does not mean that Indians were not in possession of the rifles when fired. If you can come up with anything a little more convincing, I would be interested in hearing about it. Get in touch with me and I might take a look with you next year.
Justin The rifles were 5 Springfield Carbines and 1 rolling block. Not sure where you are heading with the existence and sale comments. The location is near Willy Bends' house. Where did the Indian casings come from that were within 130 yards? These carbine cases were identified by tool marks and indicated 5 different carbines. I agree there were dump sites, but not for cases and bullets anywhere on the battlefield that I know of. I would not think they picked up brass and bullets.
It would be impossible if we need to prove every carbine existed and had a bill of sale. I know there is a range of serial numbers for the carbines, but I don't have a list of the exact ones issued.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 6, 2023 13:01:57 GMT -6
Steve Your post was a little misleading. I think what you wanted to say is that.....CARTRIDGES from 5 carbines and one rolling block rifle were identified. That is something I could agree with. Your post made it sound like the rifles were found. Are we on the same page now? If so.....It would still not be proof of who was in possession of the rifles that left those cartridges. Or even when they were deposited in that location. Justin Agreed Since no carbines were found on the Custer battlefield either, identifying them by cases and bullets is the practice.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 6, 2023 13:09:06 GMT -6
Steve Your post was a little misleading. I think what you wanted to say is that.....CARTRIDGES from 5 carbines and one rolling block rifle were identified. That is something I could agree with. Your post made it sound like the rifles were found. Are we on the same page now? If so.....It would still not be proof of who was in possession of the rifles that left those cartridges. Or even when they were deposited in that location. Justin Agreed Since no carbines were found on the Custer battlefield, identifying them by cases and bullets is the practice. Cartridges do not identify a firearm. Only the fired cartridges that leave tool marks on the cases identify the firearm. Regards Steve
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 6, 2023 16:46:50 GMT -6
Can someone summarize the details of this presentation? I read snippets and references of it/to here and yonder - but nothing more...
What was found? When?
THANKS!!!
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 7, 2023 1:10:51 GMT -6
Well Geir, everything is is getting confusing here, but that happens on these boards, the only point I am trying to make is the wolftooth map is the best indicator on custers movements, he was actually there, but I don't want to go over all the reasons why he should be trusted. I agree a lot of NA accounts are questionable as some of the soldier ones too, but can anyone find me a better map and account then wolthtooth? Remember, he was relating his account to his step grandson in his own tongue for no personal gain. Your point is that Wolftooth drew the map, or sat with Timber and they did it it ointly. For the love of God. Check out Kuhlman's timeline map! Got too much going on at the moment to check out anyones time lines, never had much interest in them anyway. BP has suddenly gone way too high, need to chill. Ian
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Jenny
Full Member
Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Jul 7, 2023 9:17:59 GMT -6
I missed the whole thing, but was there later. Like Gibbon's column. 😂
J
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Jenny
Full Member
Posts: 200
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Post by Jenny on Jul 7, 2023 9:18:11 GMT -6
I missed the whole thing, but was there later. Like Gibbon's column. 😂
J
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 7, 2023 10:01:39 GMT -6
Agreed Since no carbines were found on the Custer battlefield either, identifying them by cases and bullets is the practice. Thanks Steve Now the only question I have is ....Did you purposely try and get everyone to believe that RIFLES were identified? Or was it an honest mistake? Rifles identified does give it more weight for the JIST discussion. Finding shells that were fired from 5 different rifles....Not so much. Just to make things clear.....You do agree that the RIFLES that shot those shells have never been "IDENTIFIED" They only know that those fired shells came from different rifles. That is something I would totally agree with. Identifying cartridge shells does NOT prove who was in possession of the weapon when fired. Anyone can make up a story....That does not make the story true. Repeating the story does not give it more credibility. They only have a possibility of being true and also a possibility of mistaken understanding. Just like we just did with the rifle Identity discussion. What you actually said was NOT what you intended as fact. No rifle has been "Identified" ....Yet the implication is that they were. Even honest mistakes can result in wrong or misinformation. As evident by these last few posts! Justin Justin
I forgot that you don't live in a forensic world. When they report they identified 69 carbines on the battlefield, they are stating that one could match the tool marks with a particular weapon with a degree of certainty. They did not have the rifle in hand, but if found, they could match them if the rifle was found, and the fired case was used to match the one in possession. What I said is what I intended. They identified firearms by the tool marks on the cases found.
Here is what Doug Scott states: "The Zeir land specimens represent a minimum of five Springfield firearms, and one .58 caliber rifled musket. The .45-caliber Springfield cases from the Zeir property add five more Springfield firearms to the known number of archeological confirmed weapons"
This should seem clear enough that five Springfield firearm were identified. The only misleading was your use of a cartridge instead of a case. They found a cartridge but that would not identify a specific rifle or carbine.
Justin is your complaint that I used rifle instead of Springfield weapon?
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 7, 2023 19:17:08 GMT -6
Thanks for the response Steve You just proved my point. The RIFLES themselves have not been identified. They have proof that CARTRIDGES FOUND..... were shot from different carbines. The individual carbine has never been identified. They would need to locate the rifle and fire a shell to be able to identify the individual rifle. No, you proved my point. You continue to use cartridge, which means that it was not fired. CASES WERE FOUND, and they identify specific Springfield weapons. Those weapons are called rifles. The point was that of the CASES FOUND, five different rifles were identified by the tool marks they left on the cases. The tool marks identify the rifles and not the BS ownership papers you suggest. If you would spend less time trying to make me somehow wrong with your made-up criteria for rifle identification, we would have a more productive conversation. I assume you know the difference between a cartridge and a case with tool marks placed on it by a single identifiable firearm.
The point of rifle identification by tool-marked cases is used to determine the potential movement and the total number of identified rifles. It is not as you suggest to prove ownership. On the day of the battle, most of the ownership of the Springfield weapons would the Indians. I do believe in forensics...I might not trust the ones that twist the facts of those findings...You seem to be real good at that. I yield to your expertise on that since you are a master. We don't really care which private was issued a particular rifle. Apparently, you do. But identifying 10 rifles by tool-marked cases on Battle Ridge Extenstion and matching 4 rifles fired in the Calhoun area is important. Fact..... Shells Cartridges Fired shell casings found are consistent with being fired from 5 different carbines and one Rollingblock rifle.... I agree. Fact....A Rifle has not been identified that shot any of these cartridges. They know what type of rifle it was but they have not identified the rifle itself. Rosebud Here is what I recall from the presentation. The location is near Willy Bend's house. Cartridges from 5 carbines and 1 Remington Rolling block were identified
That statement is misleading. There was no mention of cartridges being found. You seem to have left out a very important part that led to this confusion. Two words is all it would have taken to avoid this mess I inserted them for you. To be more clear maybe it should be ( spent, or fired cartridges from) Now we have no problem. This conversation, while totally avoidable,, has now come to a close. I would agree 100% that shells fired from 5 different carbines and 1 rollingblock rifle have been found....The rifles that fired these rounds have never been found or identified. Proof of who fired those rounds is still unknown. Case closed! That is the beauty of a board. You are neither judge nor jury and have no authority to close a case or discussion. So are you saying that Doug Scott is in error when he says they need to increase the identified Springfield by five? The error, I believe, is yours in that you suggest that the tool-marked case can not identify a firearm. Identification does not have the same meaning as found.
Some people have a Springfield weapon that they believe was at the battle. If they fire and send the tool-marked case for forensic matching and it doesn't match, that is not proof the rifle was not there. Now we know there are five more Springfield weapons that someone who has rifle can check for a forensic map. The tool-marked cases identify weapons that were in the battle.
The cases identify the firearms that were there, but rifle in a certain serial number range does not. We don't know whether all 200-plus carbines were fired and ejected. Of course, the Indians end up with most of the weapons on the Custer Battlefield at the end of the day.
Regards Steve Justin
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 7, 2023 19:34:42 GMT -6
Justin
If someone takes a video of a vehicle accident and the vehicle is identified, that does not mean they have the vehicle.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 8, 2023 9:14:25 GMT -6
Steve As usual, your comprehension skills are lacking or nonexistent. If you would have someone else read it to you and explain it .....You would find that I agreed with your findings. Good grief, are you?......Na I won't finish that one. But a box of rocks comes to mind. Case has been decided by the jury..... I AM the jury. Rosebud Your lack of understanding of forensics causes you to make false conclusions. Identifying a weapon on the battlefield distinguishes it from other similar weapons. If there are 10 cases with all the same tool marks, it identifies one weapon. In this case, the tool marks identify five Springfield weapons. That can help in forming an opinion of what the action was. A single soldier or detail.
I can't comprehend why you keep attacking and losing instead of learning and becoming a better-informed poster. Regarding comprehension, I would accept my University as a better judge than you. I graduated with the highest distinction and a 3.99 GPA out of a possible 4.
Just because you are a kangaroo court doesn't give you standing.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 9, 2023 16:29:27 GMT -6
Your lack of understanding of forensics causes you to make false conclusions. Identifying a weapon on the battlefield distinguishes it from other similar weapons. If there are 10 cases with all the same tool marks, it identifies one weapon. In this case, the tool marks identify five Springfield weapons. That can help in forming an opinion of what the action was. A single soldier or detail.
I can't comprehend why you keep attacking and losing instead of learning and becoming a better-informed poster. Regarding comprehension, I would accept my University as a better judge than you. I graduated with the highest distinction and a 3.99 GPA out of a possible 4.
Just because you are a kangaroo court doesn't give you standing.
Regards
Steve Thanks Steve I accept your apology, and I call "no take backs" We now agree that 5 carbines and 1 rollingblock rifle have never been recovered, photographed or inspected in any way shape or form. Rosebud You are the only one that thinks that is significant. They have been identified as Springfield weapons on the battlefield, and the total has increased from 69 to 74. We do know that all the Springfield weapons on the Custer Battlefield were recovered despite what you. The Indians recovered them. You have no basis to state they were not photographed or inspected. There are photos of recovered carbines. The only thing identifying them as being on the battlefield would be a case fired from them compared to the known discovered cases. You still don't get it. The fired case put the firearm on the battlefield. A photograph or inspection does not place it there. This seems so easy, but you act as if you don't understand it.
Marines don't apologize when they are right, but we keep providing the truth. There is only one way to identify a firearm on the battlefield: a fired case that differs from all the other firearms identified. Since you didn't know that your initial ignorance is OK, that you continue is on you.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 9, 2023 16:42:49 GMT -6
Here you go, Justin. A picture of a carbine. How would you suggest that would place it on the battlefield? If you don't match an identified Springfield weapon, that does not prove it was not there. The recovered case(s) places it on the battlefield, not a picture. If you fire it and it matches, it does not increase the number of identified Springfield weapons. The only way to increase the number of identified Springfield weapons is to find a case on the battlefield that doesn't match the known data set. Regards Steve
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Post by oglallah on Jul 13, 2023 9:19:57 GMT -6
Could you guys bring me up to spec on what these discoveries are as I have lost contact with any new development. I would be very grateful. Have remains been found at LBH battlefield recently? Sounds very intriguing! At the moment I am immersed in Fetterman and reading both of the Ladies Carrington memoirs and also Shannon Smith. Just finished Dee Brown and Monnett and looking forward to the eyewitness (Native American) accounts of the battle. However, I need a respite so am going to head back from Lodge Trail Ridge and hopefully when and if you guys respond to this post I can read about any new developments at LBH. Thank you.
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