Little Bighorn solved - The attack across MTC

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

May 13, 2023 5:44:23 GMT -6 herosrest said:

There is an image here looking acrross the trail towards the broken rollings ridges over which split wing theories advance elements or all of Custer's command. Look left along the road and you can see diddley squat in LBH valley. Look right and the view is as that ahead. Any movement straight ahead will tend onto the higher areas for a number of reasons but primarily to see where the next heights are. In 1876 there was a large trail down MTC to the...... ford. It would have been a tortuous trail over the watercourses feeding into the Dry Creek channel later called MTC, but also referred to as Reno Ck. and I strongly suspect it was known as Muskrat Creek, which may or may not have had forks.

Any ways, there is a ford at 'B' which Maguire marked on his map, and which some testimony during the Chicago Inquiry into Reno desribed as a watering place. From the area of the mouth of MTC, a Deep Ravine descends into the river bottom. There are videos on Youtube of re-enacters doing the crossing to the Cavalry Camp in the valley. U.S. Cavalry School crossing the Little Bighorn River June. Thus, the river could be crossed at Medicine Tail Ford. I have been told in the past that it was a bad place to cross but that is not so since the valley side is timbered, offering cover. Two hundred guns could make that grossing under cover fire from the high cut-banks.

Some of the relic finds since the 1920's have led to a modern fork of the tale, that soldiers were on ridges upto a mile east of the river which has some corroboration in participant accounts of the fighting originating from............ the 1920s. Obviously an iteresting co-incidence in time and space. Which came first? The relics or the native accounts...... that's an interesting research.

Anyway, back to the image and view across MTC. There is a relatively simple terrain feature map HERE which is of interest ONLY for its display of the terrain orientation. The predominant view of matters 1876, particularly with those visiting the terrain and convinced that that is the only way to sort out what happened, should advise the US Army to dispense with maps and map reading and just disband the army. You can see here that what is labelled as Luce and Nye-Cartwright terrain is only of value in defendeing against or checking enemy activity in MTC.

After Maj. Reno's retreat across the river onto Reno Hill, hundreds of hostile warriors rode down into and across MTC to hit Custer's command up the six and drive them ............ north.

At the time, Lt. Robert P. Hughes, brother in law and ADC to BG Alfred H. Terry, detected the trail up the bluffs taken by hundreds of hostiles and drew this on his map of the battle dated June 30, 1876 which accompanied the letter he wrote about the battle.

Here is the letter and map - link at American Treasures of the Library of Congress Memory Gallery B.

Just scroll down to Battle of Little Big Horn.

Remarkable really. What happened is finally understood, 147 years on.

There is a scene HERE showing re-enactors fighting a skirmish on the flat east of the river with Greasy Grass Hill to distant right. The filming shows perfectly the problem discovered on the ground, in 1876. You cannot see squat in valley looking across the river. This is true on the flat and up to a mile east on the high ground today named Luce, Blummer and Nye-Cartwright ridges. Because the land is in private hands next to no-one gets onto it and therefore next to no-one gains the knowledge that you cannot see anything across the river. You can from the high ground of the bluffs along the river but not from the terrain allowing access to the river. You can see absolutely nothing of the valley in travelling down MTC to the river bank. Therefore, Custer and his HQ went on Greasy Grass Hill.

What happened next?

[johnson1941]

Great stuff - will need to take it all in!

But don't forget Gall, Godfrey & Mrs Spotted Bull re: Custer  & "the ridge" vs the ford in 1876/86, not the 1920s.

Attachments:

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Discovery at Little Bighorn continued and from the 1920's moved into the realm of finding and contexting artifact finds in places they were expected and where they weren't - which offers a pink red flag scenario. How come it took 50 years to start finding stuff a mile east of the river at Medicine Tail?

A guy called Joe Blummer found stuff in the late 1920's and others followed him. Amongst information at NPS Yellowstone, is the following image which relates to Edward Luce (Superintendent in the 1940's and 1950's link. He worked with a guy called Dave D. Condon at Yellowstone who was a photographer besides his day job; and in consequence there is a ton of stuff there - long forgotten and dated back to 1877 and Superintendent Norris, who visited LBH in July 1877 and took the remains of his friend Charley Reynolds to Yellowstone.



Quick remember pile of horse bones image. link

Ttfn.......

That went well. See you in an hour and I hit the Draper's Arms for a couple of Irish Coffee'. Couldn't drive then.... Silly Moi

Now, where was I?

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

OH yes. Everyone knows where Keogh Fell. Yeah?

Apr 18, 2006 0:33:12 GMT -6 bhist said:

pjsolla said:

Another interesting bit of info is that Michael Moore, around 1985 or so, found indirect evidence for six marble markers that were once located at the visitor center site, but were allegedly removed before construction of that facility in the 1950's. Anybody know if this was verified? This supposedly was found in the Custer Battlefield National Monument Archives.

PJS

That’s quickly becoming a new myth of the LBH and has been discussed somewhere else deep within the bowels of this board. If I’m not mistaken, and it’s too late to go dig out Fox’s book, Fox alludes to this in a footnote in his book. I’m assuming that’s where you gleamed this new myth? I posted the footnote in the earlier thread where this subject was discussed. I knew Moore very well back in the 80s and he never showed me any indirect evidence that markers were in that area. Indirect is a key word and if my memory serves me it’s the same word Fox used in his footnote.

Most importantly, there are no known photos to support markers there. Matter-of-fact, all known photos show no markers in that area. If new photos turn up showing markers there, it will not prove E company was there or that they fell by the hands of the suicide boys. At best, it would be a statement that six men fell near there.

I’m currently editing Edward Luce home movies of the battlefield from the 40s and 50s for a Friends of the Little Bighorn Battlefield fundraiser. There is plenty of film, shot at different times, of the area where the visitor center would eventually be built – no markers.

Plus, the NPS cannot just remove markers – SHPO would lynch them. Neil Mangum tried his best to remove some of the extra markers along Deep Ravine Trail during the mid 80s but they refused his request. SHPO has made it known that they consider the marble markers historical and will not allow their removal. They will allow markers to be moved to a different location if evidence supports the need, like the Keogh marker in the 80s.

Mind the gap!

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Warren Gray's battle theory - link.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Fox does allude to six marker's I believe in his speculative notes to allusions of events on the terrain where a squadron of 7th Cavalry rode up to Battle Ridge from the lower National cemetery, in1926. Fox of course suggests this took place 50 years earlier and without a single shred of scientific evidence for it.

Rather than jump back into suppositional Fox and his 3-11's Cemetery Ridge Episode, let's get a little more modern in the way that construction of battle models has, and does. I mean, people don't just dream this stuff up out of thin air at all, at all - immense study, contemplation and fatalism go into it and deeply so.

Here's Wagner's 2014 construction based upon Fox, who sublimely evolved the early 1950's legends of Charles Kuhlman. Beginning at the visitor center, and extending down Cemetery Ridge through the national cemetery, maintenance complex, and housing area below, the ground is hopelessly disturbed.... [Author/historian] Michael Moore ... found indirect evidence (in the Custer Battlefield National Monument archives) for six marble markers that were once located at the visitor center site but that allegedly were removed before construction of that facility (1950s).10

One of the more interesting things about this Fox observation is no E Company bodies were identified at any location other than Deep Ravine (Lieutenant Smith, of course, is the lone exception). Since we know—or think we do—28 E Company men fell in the ravine, if we add the six from Cemetery Ridge, we have possibly identified the final locations of 34 of the 37 enlisted men of the Gray Horse Troop. This would make perfect sense and in a rather circumstantial manner tend to confirm accounts left us by a number of the warriors who fought there. That would make an assumption of the remaining three men falling on the South Skirmish Line (the ridge extending down from Last Stand Hill) equally valid, especially considering the reports only a small number of bodies were found on that “line”: Captain Tom McDougall said there were just a few bodies between the “deep gully” and where Custer lay; he was sure there were less than 12 and might not have been more than six.

The basis of the above is footnote 36. (Fox,1993,p353) Itself the product of misinterpretting the map and data left by Capt. H.B. Freeman commanding the 7th Infantry battalion which arrived to Little Bighorn valley on the morning of 27th June, 1876.

36. I deduce this location on the basis of archaeological evidence—or lack of it. There are no material evidences for a skirmish line on the relatively undisturbed slope between Custer Hill and the visitor center (except for a one-lane road, a walkway, and the former site of Fort Phil Kearny reburials). Beginning at the visitor center, and extending down Cemetery Ridge through the national cemetery, maintenance complex, and housing area below, the ground is hopelessly disturbed (see figs. 6-4, 6-6, and 6-7). Michael Moore very recently found indirect evidence (in the Custer Battlefield National Monument archives) for six marble markers that were once located at the visitor center site but that allegedly were removed before construction of that facility (1950s). This information came too late for verification here. A topic here since 2006 link

Whilst the ground is hopelessly disturbed by construction, footfall and burials digging nearly 5,000 graves in the Superintendent's backyard - was there ever the sudden revelation of, 'OMG, battle relics are being discovered.

Hey, Mr. Luce............ Look what we found! You'll have to postpone the burials...........

Succinct visuals explaining the theory which today has those based on this terrain giving tutorials from the Visitor Center for visitors, about what happened. link Remember, as stated by Fox - absolutely zilch evidence discoveed to support such theory since..... 1876, really. None.

So, despite 43 dead on Last Stand Hill, and none to the west of it, the firing which left the flats peppered with bullets had to have come from....... the cemetery. Is this not rather remarkable? Organised skirmishming from the cemetery but no dead. No organised skirmishing from Last Stand Hill but 43 dead and more than 50 markers on ground hopelessly disturbed by marker placments, monumental erections, road construction and grading and as many as 50,000 visitors in a single day (1926, 50th Anniversary) during annual re-enactments during which all activity travelled along the entrance road. Wow.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

If you avoid controversial imaging ( don't watch the visuals) and have a decent sound system which goes loud without kicking you out = Listen to Hagar's finest m.youtube.com/watch?v=VeqpRvFaCtI&pp=ygURU2V4eSBsaXR0bGUgdGhpbmc%3D

[johnson1941]

Listening to the Custer Apollo link, right off it did seem a bit strange that E, which was close(r) to the flats with F, would WALK their horses away from the flats up to the Visitor Center, just to turn around and form a skirmish line to fire...on the flats, where the reserve (F) was (??)


The ford, where Custer attempted to cross to attack the Indian Village, Montana
Keystone-Mast Collection, UCR/California Museum of Photography

Attachments:

[noggy]

May 22, 2023 4:52:04 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

Listening to the Custer Apollo link, right off it did seem a bit strange that E, which was close(r) to the flats with F, would WALK their horses away from the flats up to the Visitor Center, just to turn around and form a skirmish line to fire...on the flats, where the reserve (F) was (??)


The ford, where Custer attempted to cross to attack the Indian Village, Montana
Keystone-Mast Collection, UCR/California Museum of Photography

I'd concentrate on the footage, he has, as far as I can remember, not a too balanced view on things. But that being said, for us who have not been there, his videos are visually fantastic.

All the best,
Noggy

[AZ Ranger]

May 13, 2023 6:21:11 GMT -6 herosrest said:

^Ducemus

May 13, 2023 5:44:23 GMT -6 herosrest said:

There is an image here looking acrross the trail towards the broken rollings ridges over which split wing theories advance elements or all of Custer's command. Look left along the road and you can see diddley squat in LBH valley. Look right and the view is as that ahead. Any movement straight ahead will tend onto the higher areas for a number of reasons but primarily to see where the next heights are. In 1876 there was a large trail down MTC to the...... ford. It would have been a tortuous trail over the watercourses feeding into the Dry Creek channel later called MTC, but also referred to as Reno Ck. and I strongly suspect it was known as Muskrat Creek, which may or may not have had forks.

Any ways, there is a ford at 'B' which Maguire marked on his map, and which some testimony during the Chicago Inquiry into Reno desribed as a watering place. From the area of the mouth of MTC, a Deep Ravine descends into the river bottom. There are videos on Youtube of re-enacters doing the crossing to the Cavalry Camp in the valley. U.S. Cavalry School crossing the Little Bighorn River June. Thus, the river could be crossed at Medicine Tail Ford. I have been told in the past that it was a bad place to cross but that is not so since the valley side is timbered, offering cover. Two hundred guns could make that grossing under cover fire from the high cut-banks.

Some of the relic finds since the 1920's have led to a modern fork of the tale, that soldiers were on ridges upto a mile east of the river which has some corroboration in participant accounts of the fighting originating from............ the 1920s. Obviously an iteresting co-incidence in time and space. Which came first? The relics or the native accounts...... that's an interesting research.

Anyway, back to the image and view across MTC. There is a relatively simple terrain feature map HERE which is of interest ONLY for its display of the terrain orientation. The predominant view of matters 1876, particularly with those visiting the terrain and convinced that that is the only way to sort out what happened, should advise the US Army to dispense with maps and map reading and just disband the army. You can see here that what is labelled as Luce and Nye-Cartwright terrain is only of value in defendeing against or checking enemy activity in MTC.

After Maj. Reno's retreat across the river onto Reno Hill, hundreds of hostile warriors rode down into and across MTC to hit Custer's command up the six and drive them ............ north.

At the time, Lt. Robert P. Hughes, brother in law and ADC to BG Alfred H. Terry, detected the trail up the bluffs taken by hundreds of hostiles and drew this on his map of the battle dated June 30, 1876 which accompanied the letter he wrote about the battle.

Here is the letter and map - link at American Treasures of the Library of Congress Memory Gallery B.

Just scroll down to Battle of Little Big Horn.

Remarkable really. What happened is finally understood, 147 years on.

There is a scene HERE showing re-enactors fighting a skirmish on the flat east of the river with Greasy Grass Hill to distant right. The filming shows perfectly the problem discovered on the ground, in 1876. You cannot see squat in valley looking across the river. This is true on the flat and up to a mile east on the high ground today named Luce, Blummer and Nye-Cartwright ridges. Because the land is in private hands next to no-one gets onto it and therefore next to no-one gains the knowledge that you cannot see anything across the river. You can from the high ground of the bluffs along the river but not from the terrain allowing access to the river. You can see absolutely nothing of the valley in travelling down MTC to the river bank. Therefore, Custer and his HQ went on Greasy Grass Hill.

What happened next?

It shows the reason Custer would never cross there. They have to cross single file and egress into timber. They could not form up and the village is in open so no place to form up.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

As AZR says, people can see problems crossing into timber near the village. That looks like more trees than exist today around the B fords where what stands offers more a screen than covered area under brush.

It is more heavily wooded downriver onto the Ford C and Deep Ravine mouth area. In my read of what happened, that area played a part but was the route to water for cavalry mounts stampeded in the fight on the bluffs and ridges above. Hence maybe dead animals on the 27/28 June suggesting troops fought there on those timbered loops. Something early on, left Reno and Benteen with that idea or similar although it changed by July 4th.

Various of the hand drawn early maps from withing two or three years indicate timber on the right bank east of the river but there are no mentions in written or oral accounts.

The photographer understood what he was shooting but no-one else ever will understand where that place is, or what it was the photographer 'THOUGHT' happened there.

Because timing models aren't really considered or used across multiple parts of events, it is easy to forget or miss that by the time the men with Custer reached and reconned the fords, they were already dead men riding and nothing they could do about it. It has happened many, many times and there are so many examples but this at LBH is completely unique.

[johnson1941]

"Custer Battle, Little Big Horn at mouth of Big Horn, Medicine Tail Creek (look northeast to Custer's position) where Indians crossed the river to attack Custer, Crow scouts had come down to this point to inspect Indian camp, one of hills where Custer's men fought can be seen between the trees."
Denver Public Library Special Collections



"The ford, where Custer attempted to cross to attack the Indian Village, Montana"
Keystone-Mast Collection, UCR/California Museum of Photography, Murrow c1879

Attachments:

[noggy]

May 24, 2023 10:11:23 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

"Custer Battle, Little Big Horn at mouth of Big Horn, Medicine Tail Creek (look northeast to Custer's position) where Indians crossed the river to attack Custer, Crow scouts had come down to this point to inspect Indian camp, one of hills where Custer's men fought can be seen between the trees."
Denver Public Library Special Collections

I don't have the Crow scouts' stories in my head, did they say this themselves?



All the best,
Noggy

[johnson1941]

Not sure - that was the image description.

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

There is some difficulty with where, rather than what, the scouts east of the river did. Quite a bit of the difficulty pertains to ignoring what was actually said (to E.S. Curtis) in relation to where they went and when they left.

Because Curtis gave only a brief published outline and map, in 'The North American Indian' volume 3, it remained and remains a backwater of research and basic knowledge. Those who researched Curtis's papers have left the information but again it avoids mainstream research and publication and is distorted to be ignored and derided.