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Post by justinterested on May 25, 2023 15:12:02 GMT -6
I don't know if these will help or hurt, but I'll post in case. I also don't know how the resolution will work out on this site. It shows some pretty small files once I attach.
These are from 2021, a dry year, and in August. So the water is lower by a long-shot compared to what it would have been in June 1776. The pictures also show the general depth of the water in a May/June timeframe (the small cutbank on the river's left bank, the west bank)
They are from the Indian camp side of Medicine Tail Coulee, so where most think the Cheyenne circle was. You can use the grandstand as a centering point for understanding what you're looking at in the three different pictures.
There've been discussions in this thread on where the crow scouts were, and Bouyer. I pretend definitive knowledge, but one spot that is stated in some literature is the high bluff straight over the grandstand in picture 2. That's what I've always understood to be the reference of those scouts firing a few shots into the tipis as Custer was deciding his next moves. You can see this bluff just rising up on the left of the 4th and last picture. That picture is from 2019, and is from the bottom of MTC, looking west over Ford B.
Rob
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Post by noggy on May 25, 2023 15:12:22 GMT -6
Not sure - that was the image description. Yep it was kinda a silly question, because as far as I remember, Curly and the other scouts were kinda at odds when it came to telling what "really happened". So it may have been that someone said what the description says, but maybe not everyone. Typical LBH BS, in other words Noggy
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Post by herosrest on May 28, 2023 6:11:48 GMT -6
I don't know if these will help or hurt, but I'll post in case. I also don't know how the resolution will work out on this site. It shows some pretty small files once I attach.
These are from 2021, a dry year, and in August. So the water is lower by a long-shot compared to what it would have been in June 1776. The pictures also show the general depth of the water in a May/June timeframe (the small cutbank on the river's left bank, the west bank)
They are from the Indian camp side of Medicine Tail Coulee, so where most think the Cheyenne circle was. You can use the grandstand as a centering point for understanding what you're looking at in the three different pictures. There've been discussions in this thread on where the crow scouts were, and Bouyer. I pretend definitive knowledge, but one spot that is stated in some literature is the high bluff straight over the grandstand in picture 2. That's what I've always understood to be the reference of those scouts firing a few shots into the tipis as Custer was deciding his next moves. You can see this bluff just rising up on the left of the 4th and last picture. That picture is from 2019, and is from the bottom of MTC, looking west over Ford B. Rob Thank you for the images. Movements by the Crow scouts have been drafted into author's theories of events after a number of fashions which have evolved Humphries Miller's White Cow Bull story of Custer down in the water. It has never been popular and causes as much difficulty as it addresses. I'm going to paint a picture which I can see within the strands ofthis thing, simply because the topic is a dartboard. The Crow's conversed with Curtis during a guided tour. Curtis's impression was that the Crow's and therefore Custer, advanced on Greasy Grass Hill. This is clear from Curtis's account and map. This was the information in Curtis's notes lodged with the Smithsonian and reviewed by Hutchins and Viola. It is worth noting that this verifies locations given by Pretty Shield in interview with Frank Bird Lindeman. She had Custer down in the water. HERE is detail from Curtis's map and account, published in 'The North American Indian - Vol. 3'; which is difficult to come by and which is most definately worth resding in relation to his trip over the ground with the scouts. I have it in text somewhere from long ago and if I can hunt it up will post. Don't hold your breath since I reckon it's on a trashed hard drive which i'm slowly recovering. Curtis's idea, per White Man Runs Him, was that Custer sat on Weir Peak watching the Reno debacle BEFORE then advancing across Medicine Tail's coulee to North Medicine Tail and Greasy Grass Hill. Firstly. Reno's fight was a shoot and scoot - Curtis answered his own difficulty in discussing location '4' on his map. White Man Runs Him gave a false impression of Custer's command waiting on the bluffs until Reno retreated. It's pure....... rubbish from the Crow scout. Why Greasy Grass Hill? From Luce, NC ridges, and from the river front along the mouth of MTC and North MT (Deep Coulee) you can see diddly squat in the valley. You need to get above the treeline at Greasy Grass Hill or on what is called Bouyer's Bluff upriver of MTC. A number of authors invested their theory in Bouyer's Bluff. That is a crock of golf balls.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 28, 2023 9:18:05 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on May 29, 2023 2:33:39 GMT -6
Yup, the article touches a few of the bases differences of views..... The 'Wwere Custer Fell' book by some Boston Uni. students looked into many matters of the battle by comparing old photos with their own on the ground terrain observations and imagery and.... well, boys and their toys. I suspect there may be a comment or two, on my comment on the authors, so Up to speed on't and a reflection. The terrain is a repeating repeat of repeating terrain features. I can imagine that beans will grow terribly well if planted but cash croppers preferred 'Lo. To create Where Custer Fell, authors James S. Brust, Brian C. Pohanka, and Sandy Barnard searched for elusive documents and photographs, made countless trips to the battlefield, and scrutinized all available sources. Each chapter begins with a concise, lively description of an episode in the battle. The narratives are graphically illustrated by historical photos, which are presented alongside modern photos of the same location on the battlefield. The book also features detailed maps and photographs of battle participants and the early photographers who attempted to tell their story. Of course what they did was create the art of the battle art, whilst purporting to provide the art of battle (WAR)... The Art of War...... my God...... There is a famous college teaching this which is still and frequently, coming up with theories of what happened at Little Bighorn, so that it doesn't happen again. Hmmm....it's west of New York city..... erm..... Lt. Harrington's wife's family were postmaters there for like.......... ever. Hmmm.... Damn.... Drat..... what's it called? Anyways.. The 'Fell' book is a reported rather well HERE by Friends, and is an established shortlist item must read, on the battle. Nothings perfect as is pointed up in the Friend's article, and let me tell you - items in there are far more controversial than many care to admit, or even consider. For example, consider the number of comparisons made and then wonder at... hmm... 100% correct. Ha.... ha. Where Custer Fell is richly researched and elegantly written. The three authors have provided us an invaluable resource regarding the changing faces of Custer Battlefield; it’s quite surprising to discover just how little the face has changed. Yup, it's exactly as it was 146 years ago..... ha ha...... added - a preview
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Post by johnson1941 on May 29, 2023 5:43:56 GMT -6
Thanks HR - that book sounds like I would enjoy it!
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Post by justinterested on May 29, 2023 18:33:10 GMT -6
I don't know if these will help or hurt, but I'll post in case. I also don't know how the resolution will work out on this site. It shows some pretty small files once I attach.
These are from 2021, a dry year, and in August. So the water is lower by a long-shot compared to what it would have been in June 1776. The pictures also show the general depth of the water in a May/June timeframe (the small cutbank on the river's left bank, the west bank)
They are from the Indian camp side of Medicine Tail Coulee, so where most think the Cheyenne circle was. You can use the grandstand as a centering point for understanding what you're looking at in the three different pictures. There've been discussions in this thread on where the crow scouts were, and Bouyer. I pretend definitive knowledge, but one spot that is stated in some literature is the high bluff straight over the grandstand in picture 2. That's what I've always understood to be the reference of those scouts firing a few shots into the tipis as Custer was deciding his next moves. You can see this bluff just rising up on the left of the 4th and last picture. That picture is from 2019, and is from the bottom of MTC, looking west over Ford B. Rob Thank you for the images. Movements by the Crow scouts have been drafted into author's theories of events after a number of fashions which have evolved Humphries Miller's White Cow Bull story of Custer down in the water. It has never been popular and causes as much difficulty as it addresses. I'm going to paint a picture which I can see within the strands ofthis thing, simply because the topic is a dartboard. The Crow's conversed with Curtis during a guided tour. Curtis's impression was that the Crow's and therefore Custer, advanced on Greasy Grass Hill. This is clear from Curtis's account and map. This was the information in Curtis's notes lodged with the Smithsonian and reviewed by Hutchins and Viola. It is worth noting that this verifies locations given by Pretty Shield in interview with Frank Bird Lindeman. She had Custer down in the water. HERE is detail from Curtis's map and account, published in 'The North American Indian - Vol. 3'; which is difficult to come by and which is most definately worth resding in relation to his trip over the ground with the scouts. I have it in text somewhere from long ago and if I can hunt it up will post. Don't hold your breath since I reckon it's on a trashed hard drive which i'm slowly recovering. Curtis's idea, per White Man Runs Him, was that Custer sat on Weir Peak watching the Reno debacle BEFORE then advancing across Medicine Tail's coulee to North Medicine Tail and Greasy Grass Hill. Firstly. Reno's fight was a shoot and scoot - Curtis answered his own difficulty in discussing location '4' on his map. White Man Runs Him gave a false impression of Custer's command waiting on the bluffs until Reno retreated. It's pure....... rubbish from the Crow scout. Why Greasy Grass Hill? From Luce, NC ridges, and from the river front along the mouth of MTC and North MT (Deep Coulee) you can see diddly squat in the valley. You need to get above the treeline at Greasy Grass Hill or on what is called Bouyer's Bluff upriver of MTC. A number of authors invested their theory in Bouyer's Bluff. That is a crock of golf balls. Hi, HR. I'm not clear on what you're saying here.
Are you saying you think Bouyer and the Crow Scouts went all the way to Greasy Grass Hill for those statements. i.e. somewhere near '4' on that map? Or are you just saying it's too tough to figure out? I'm not following what you're saying.
The one thing I understand enough to react to is the idea that Custer sat there on Wier Point, or thereabouts, and watched Reno's rout begin. I know there are a few accounts that say that, but I don't see how it fits with much of anything else.
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Post by herosrest on May 30, 2023 6:35:26 GMT -6
I don't think it's difficult to understand but the confusion surrounding the information presents difficulties.
I see the three scouts and Bouyer with Custer to GGH. It's a minority opinion which is at odds with most ideas.
Curtis felt Custer delayed on Weir but he didn't see a brief action in the valley.
In discussing this, matters turn slippery with implications for Reno and Benteen centred study. Reno brief fight. Crows and Bouyer to GGH. Custer cut off from Reno Hill. It was not the three Crows who met and directed Benteen to Reno Hill. I find it hard to see that it was Half Yellow Face either.
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Post by justinterested on May 30, 2023 8:22:51 GMT -6
I would say this is true of most things past Wier Point :-) ".. the confusion surrounding the information presents difficulties."
I'd never thought of the scouts getting as far as Greasy Grass Hill before they broke off, other than Bouyer of course. This wasn't why I posted those images - I did that just because of the view of the Ford from the Indian side of the river. You don't often see that in postings here, so I thought it might help some. But this was worth the post for me. I'll look at those accounts on the scouts a little more as a result. Thanks for the thought.
By the way of your other reference, the other place I've thought the scouts might have been in those references was what I think you're calling Bouyer's Bluff. If it's where I think it is, I've been on that trail. It starts opposite of Wier Point on the west side of the road there, right? If so, I'd wondered about that spot too.
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Post by herosrest on May 30, 2023 9:57:49 GMT -6
Bouyer's bluff is wrapped in one of the hat waving episodes, ergo... as per Curley interviews by Walter Camp; Bouyer was on those bluffs and hat waving to gain Custer's attention. Bouyer then rode down to join Custer and did some talking.
From those bluffs - line of sight puts Custer beyond Medicine Tail's Coulee and also the terrain of Maguire's 'B' ford area - UNLESS - Bouyer was at the cut (end) in the bluffs running down from Weir. Then, I do not believe he would have seen anything of Reno's fight and movement fighting on foot, falling back and charging into the river. Seeing through the timber is a problem. It was in 1876 and remains so today.
I broadly accept Curley's information from the several interviews with Camp and surmise that he was NOT with Bouyer and the other three scouts who moved to North Medicine Tail (Deep Coulee) and Greasy Grass Hill. That's what I've worked out a long time back and it isn't popular but neither is the idea that Reno fought a brief action in the valley. It's too neat and tidy for a lot of people set in more complicated and more respectful scenarios and theory.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 1, 2023 2:04:20 GMT -6
Bouyer's bluff is wrapped in one of the hat waving episodes, ergo... The modern day "true story" is that they were warning the village of Custer's approach. They fired 3 shots in the air to get the village's attention and waved for them to go stop Custer. The job of the Crow scouts was to lead Custer into a trap. No.... I do not believe that BS....But it is out there and many of the Crow Indians say it is true. Rosebud If I recall, this revolved around Bouyer leading Custer into the trap and was published in one of the Weibert books. Well, well....... LBHA are on it.... I am the sort who will believe anything, shown the set in concrete proof and bodies in the ground but it may have been tat Bouyer was a triple invert secret agent for Ice and sworn to the Cheyenne Way. Perhaps it was overspill from his brother Johhnny, who scouted for Miles and negotiated some of the 1877 surrenders. Things didn't end well for John Boy, if I remember rightly. Was he robbed of a huge lottery win and then hung for killing the thief? There was once upon a time, a website advertising the Weibert family gems and I can't find it..... Ho hum. Their books are around here and there if hunted.... for. The local history, is the local history and is incredibly important. It is only because clever people from far distant civilizations thousands of years ago, devised writing as communication, that history today is as completely screwed up as it is. Word of mouth - the kiss of truth, is devastatingly important to the here and now. This popped up, and is a perfect example of the work people do with this Battle. I think that Teutoborg was far worse than Montana. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 1, 2023 2:59:05 GMT -6
I can't help myself in expanding the theme of the local history, and where 'local' begins and ends. I link Voices in Our Souls: The DeWolfs, Dakota Sioux and the Little Bighorn by Gene and Ann DeWolf Erb. Blurb - Frances DeWolf, wife of Seventh Cavalry surgeon James DeWolf, lay in bed alone on a frigid morning in 1875, listening to her husband's activities in their military quarters-opening the parlor stove, tossing in logs, the metal-on-metal screech as he closed the stove door. She knew she should get up, but instead she curled under the warmth of heaped blankets and recalled their adventure so far. They had met in the Oregon wilderness where James was an enlisted hospital steward at an Army camp and she a teacher for ranchers' children. She was 19 and he was 28 when they were married. In 1873, James applied for and was granted a transfer to a post near Boston so he could attend Harvard Medical School. But even with his Harvard degree, he wouldn't leave the Army. So here they were in the middle of a frozen prairie. There were rumors that Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer would lead the cavalry in a campaign against roaming Indians next year. If true, she hoped her husband wouldn't have to go off to fight as well.
"Voices in Our Souls," a historical novel based on fact, tells James and Fannie's poignant story-one filled with joys and triumphs, regrets and sorrows, and above all else, enduring love. Gene Erb is also the author of "A Plague of Hunger" based on two award-winning newspaper series, one focusing on the migration of jobs from Iowa to Mexico and the other examining world hunger issues. A former U.S. Navy pilot, Mr. Erb was a reporter and editor with the "Des Moines Register and Tribune" from 1974 through 2000. He has a bachelor's degree from Iowa State University and a master's degree in journalism from the University of Missouri. Ann DeWolf Erb was a librarian at Iowa State University for five years and then an analyst, manager and officer at an Iowa insurance company through 2000. She has a bachelor's degree from the University of West Florida and a master's degree in library science from the University of Rhode Island. She is a distant cousin of Dr. James Madison DeWolf. The authors live in Iowa. Then of course, there is Larry Verne's Mr. Custer. I find myself wondering if...... Custer's image was ever used on a stamp? Is there a Post Office in Custer? There certainly is one at Garryowen. Post Offices are officially registered and that process used to require lodging maps of the local terrain and road routes, so that mail could be delivered and collected. I'm not completely sure when the first PO was set up, but it may stretch back to Joe Blummer in the old store at Garryowen, and of course there will have been maps of the locale. Post Office Archives. I ran into this minor gem, in looking at the Lt. Harrington story of his errant wife going missing for several years. Verne Smalley published an unfortunate historical novel about Custer's lost Officer. This led me to Schufeld and the recovery of a skull in the valley, in 1877, which most definately was not Harrington's skull. Exactly the same problems as with the supposed identification of Bouyer's skull at marker 33. It ain't Bouyer - absolutely no way although the family most certainly did discover what happened to him and one of the daughters, or grand children, I forget now.... wrote about it in a chapter in her book about reintroducing buffalo to their land and the Plains. In terms of Harrington's wife, her father, then mother, self and the entire family were the Post Masters at..... wait for it...... West Point. Yes, that West Point. Researching West Point got me into Benedict Arnold and also the Roe family. That also got me into the US Mint and one of 7th Cavalry's doctors, the one who arrived late at FAL and missedthe expedition, ended up running the place. Kimble was his name but he had two arms - Custer's missing doctor. Should it be POGO or GOPO? Anyways.... running that on a little big further, the railway ran into the valley in 1895/6 and I'd guess that was impetus for a mail service and it is slightly odd to have a Post Office at Garryowen, with the Agency just a few miles along the road and track and then Fort Custer beyond. However, those were of course sensitive times and the Crow's went to war with the US. The Sword Bearer incident. Who knows...... Grover, maybe - up at the Stone House. Or maybe Curley on his land at the mouth of Deep Ravine in the valley at the D Fords. The Crow Rebellion put down by Capt. Myles Moylan MoH, Company A, 7th Cavalry. There is some evidence that Cheyennes stood with the Crow during the campaign which saw eight cavalry and six infantry companies commanded by Thomas H. Ruger, deploy from Ft. Custer into Little Bighorn valley and engage not far from Custer Battlefield up Custer's Creek. linklink
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