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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 26, 2022 16:07:32 GMT -6
So Custer ordered Reno to advance on the village at as rapid a gait as prudent. According to William O Taylor, Reno’s battalion stopped to water their horses at the river crossing, prior to moving on to attack the village. I can’t quite get my head around that. While I understand that the horses were parched from the long ride, I would have thought any delay at this juncture would not be prudent, since it would allow the Indians more time to prepare defences etc. Reno was unaware that the village was not alerted to their presence. Also had he not stopped at the river, by the time of Reno’s retreat, Custer would have arrived in time on the bluffs to see the retreat and hence would have made a different deployment. Food for thought.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 27, 2022 3:52:26 GMT -6
Have you ever tried to cross water with 130 thirsty horses?
He also had his troops tighten saddle cinch/girth, the proper thing to do before a planned attack. Especially, since the saddles had been on since the previous day.
What about Martini stating that Custer stopped his column near a big hill to locate/view the village?
How long were Keogh and Custer's adjutant talking to Reno at the River, prior to returning to Custer's column, was the Custer column moving during this time?
Did you ever hear Indian accounts of Custer stopping for some period of time and they did not no why. But, it allowed them time to react?
So many questions and so little time.
Regards, Tom
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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 27, 2022 4:39:16 GMT -6
Yes I accept what you are saying. I do recall trying to pull my horse's head out of the creek one time after a ride and he was a tad stubborn. Having said that, I didn't have spurs and Reno's horses didn't stop for a drink on the way back! lol. What kind of coordination is possible when Custer orders part of his command to attack the village (rapidly), without ascertaining what potential delays they will have for watering, saddle checks, taking a dump etc while he goes around to pincer them? I can't get my head around that. I mean did he synchronise watches and say 'we will envelope the village with simultaneous attacks at 1400?' lol. He just ordered Reno to attack. What I was getting at was had Reno arrived earlier at the village by not watering his horses etc, he would also have retreated earlier and hence Custer would have clearly seen the debacle before heading north and one would think have made different plans. History often pivots on mere moments... just another what if....
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2022 8:34:19 GMT -6
I think they all let their horses have a drink, maybe in Reno's case it was on the move but in that heat you would at least let them have a slurp.
Benteen let his battalion drink at the morass, which was so small it had to be done one company at a time. Custer too stopped for a drink, here is what Martini said at the RCOI.
After I started from Gen. Custer to go back, I travelled 5 or 600 yards perhaps 3/4 of a mile. I got on the same ridge where General Custer saw the village the first time. On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno's battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it, but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses, I met Capt. Benteen.
Are you a rugby league fan SF, the play offs are due to start around now.
Ian
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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 27, 2022 17:04:58 GMT -6
Hey Ian, Ahh first time I've seen Martini's statement about Custer watering his horses. Now I recall something about Custer believing his regiment had been spotted by Indians and so instead of waiting to attack the village on the morning of 26th as planned, he ordered an immediate advance as he expected the Indians would scatter as they had on many other occasions. So I've always had the impression that time was of the essence in that final advance. I always thought once Custer split off Reno's battalion it was 'game on' attack mode. Having said all that, a slurp on the march is different to stopping to water - check saddles etc. So I can follow that premise if it did not really delay Reno's advance.
Ah well I follow the Manly Sea Eagles (my childhood team) and the Dragons (where I live) its complicated... as a kid there was no team where I live (Illawarra / Wollongong) so I followed Manly. Then they created a new team the Illawarra Steelers in my area. So I was kind of torn. Then the Steelers merged with the St George Dragons and became the Illawarra - St George Dragons. That really put me in a pickle because as a kid I always hated the Dragons...lol.
Anyway both Dragons and Sea Eagles won't make the finals....so I'll barrack for the Sharks as my girlfriend lives in Cronulla Sharks territory. Go Sharks!
cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 28, 2022 12:44:34 GMT -6
Hi SF, every time I see Illawarra it reminds me of the great Trent Barrett and the time he spent playing in England for Wigan. Are you old enough to remember the great English import Mal Reily? He played for Manly in the early 1970s and ended up as the British manager.
My team (Widnes) have fallen from grace, we are now in the lower tier, but I remember the good days when we were known as the "cup king", even world champions when we beat Canberra raiders, Canberra had a great team then, led by Mal Meninga. We had the rough and tough Kurt Sorrenson who took no prisoners.
The best Aussie we had was Noel Cleal, with him in second row along with Kurt, our pack was awesome.
I used to follow Canberra in the league games but dropped off when all the English players left, they only have one left now. I don't think you will see another Sam Burgess coming out of England for a long time.
Ian
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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 28, 2022 15:24:26 GMT -6
Hey Ian,
I found Reno's official report of July 5 1876.
when Lieutenant Cook, adjutant, came to me and siad the village was only two miles above, and running away; to move forward at as rapid a gait as prudent, and to charge afterward, and that the whole outfit would support me. I think those were his exaxt words. I at once took a fast trot, and moved down about two miles, when I came to a ford of the river. I crossed immediately, and halted about ten minutes or less to gather the battalion, sending word to Custer that I had everything in front of me, and that they were strong.
So Reno says he stopped at the river for 10mins.
I don't remember Reilly playing, but remember the name of course. Ah Noel Cleal, he was one of my Manly favourites in my youth. and of course Mal Meninga is a legend. Kurt Sorensen? Yes I remember him, Cronulla sharks player?
I was much more into my footy back then, than I am now. Most of the teams are Pacific Islanders or Maori these days. Naturally talented big strong lads. Yes Sam Burgess was a great player, one of your best. He was one of my mum's favourites as she followed Souths.
cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 29, 2022 4:05:54 GMT -6
Hi SF, yes you are totally correct about a pause as Reno's battalion crossed at ford A. Fred Wagner has, in my opinion, wrote the best account of the valley fight, so there is no need for me to elaborate, here is a section from Fred's work from the magazine "research review" 2013. Its a bank holiday weekend over here, so last night I poured a glass or two of wine and found the highlites on youtube from the 1973 grand final, which Mal Reily played in, Cornulla hit him off the ball to get him off the pitch. There was some big game players in those two teams, many of which toured Britain with the kangaroos. It was a dirty game Looking forward to this years RL World Cup Ian
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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 29, 2022 5:54:20 GMT -6
Hey Ian,
Thanks for that. That's a nicely detailed field/action description and interpretation of Reno's and other's post battle reports including some vivid reenactment scenes at the crossing. Very engaging. So it makes sense.... definite purpose and urgency about Reno's movements with unavoidable brief delay at the crossing and to re-organise. Great stuff!
You got me thinking about your 1973 trip down memory lane....you've inspired me to dig up one of my favourites as a kid, the 1978 Grand Final Manly v Cronulla which was an 11-11 draw, with the replay going to Manly 16-0. I remember my next door neighbour was a Sharks fan and there was some great ribbing and posturing...I celebrated the victory and my neighbour took it graciously... great times.
cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 29, 2022 12:59:55 GMT -6
Your welcome, Fred writes in more detail about the ford A crossing in his book ""Strategy for defeat"
Was Tommy Bishop still playing for Cronulla then SF, he was one tough scrum half. I always thought the rules concerning British overseas players were too strict, we had four really great players playing in Australia in Reily, Bishop, Mike Stephenson and Brian Lockwood, all four would be picked for Great Britain, but in those days if you played for overseas teams you didn't get picked.
Ian
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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 30, 2022 3:53:37 GMT -6
Hey Ian, no Bishop was before I was really into footy. Funny thing he played for Cronulla in the 1973 Grand final ... again against Manly (Manly 10-7). Reilly played in that final. Yeah that was a dumbass rule. It's not like they changed their citizenship. I bet if there was a war there would have been no qualms in calling them up for that!
I recall watching another Brit import play for Manly around 1980 and then North Sydney- John Gray. Tough as nails.
cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 30, 2022 5:06:05 GMT -6
Grey was a ex England rugby union hooker, he played in the GB RL team, I am sure he was a tourist.
We can't mention imports without the likes of Schofield, Crooks, Hanley and Offiah. But I bloke from my home town went out there too, don't know if you remember him, Andy Currier, I think the aussies nick named him the "white diamond"
The main Australian who impressed us over here was the great Wally Lewis.
Ian
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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 30, 2022 7:06:03 GMT -6
Ah yes, the Balmain connection with 'chariots' and Hanley. Yes Schofield was always dangerous.
Wally Lewis had a time manipulation ability. I've never seen a player with as much time as him when working a play. Opponents were so wary of him they would stand off and so he just dictated play all over the park. It was almost like he saw everything in slow motion.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 30, 2022 7:29:21 GMT -6
When Lewis and Stirling put on the green and gold, you knew you had to get your defense in order. The best we could throw at you were Tony Myler and Andy Gregory, who were good players in their own right.
The first Aussie import I saw at Widnes was Chris Anderson, he played for us in the 1974/75 season. He played in the Widnes team who lifted the challenge cup at wembley in May 1975.
Ian
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Post by sirfrancis on Aug 30, 2022 15:34:12 GMT -6
Yeah Chris Anderson - Winger for Canterbury from memory, I think he was also their goal kicker. He was just solid and reliable but not spectacular. Remember the 1988 Grand final Balmain Tigers v Canterbury Bulldogs? When Terry Lamb took out Hanley early on with a dirty shot? That definitely changed the flow of the match.
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