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Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2023 19:39:16 GMT -6
Also cool - WMRH did indeed tell Camp about Custer watching all of Reno fight from the bluffs, AND also says he went all the way to Ford B...what a trip (& amount of time) to get back to meet Benteen near Ford A! Did Camp indicate at all, on maps or notes where those bluffs were? Not that I ever found in doing as you are now. There were at least two hat waving incidents seperated in time and related to a visit to the bluffs at Benteen's 'G' spot, indicated differently and nearer Reno Ck. by Curtis; and that observed by DeRudio after the retreat from the valley was underway and the Lt. was undercover looking out from the timber. The DeRudio sighting can be associated with Bouyer, on the highest point which DeRudio visited two days later. That's an open issue but the highest point is the highest point, unless it collapsed. That is related then by Curley as Bouyer attracting the attention of the Custers to the north and that would be somewhere beyond MTC which is shielded from view from the bluffs by bluffs. Timing scenarios support this as i'm sure you are aware - for example, Martin saw Reno fighting which means his command were at leat in the timber but timing Martin, suggests the skirmish lines were on the Plain. Bouyer then rode down and joined Custer. The earlier hat jobbie was Custer spurring on his command as they were arriving on the high ground, which is plain from the observations made by men of Reno's battalion as it proceeded towards the GO point of timber. When they arrived there and halted with Company M sending a detail to skirmish the timber and report back, Varnum in riding in from his advance on the left of the line, sighted the command on the bluffs (Custer's). This is broadly inline with everything known by anyone able to tell what went on at the time in some cogent form. It doesn't matter what if any crossing places existed below Maguire's B, until a decision not to cross there was made. It doesn't matter further downstream either until a decision to ignore the other B fords was made and the lower fords are then irrelevant because they did not offer escape or a victory. The companies were up to their bottom lip in more than they could handle and scattered across the ridges from the river to NC Ridge and Luce Ridge. The idea came forth from John Stands in Timber tha his family were up on Custer Hill blasting away at troopers. Calhoun and Finley Hills are far better and more likely candidates for those woodpeckers. You felt that Custer rode down Cedar Coulee and even offered Utley's map of it earlier, so it is great to see that you have come around to the actual reality of it and ditched the linear circuit going in the opposite direction to the ford and village. Well done. Godfrey's comment about Custer's men and the mile - was about the distance between them, and Reno in the valley. Given the above, there was then a third and entirely lost to history hat waving from the north by Custer, or Custer, or possibly even Cooke, when Bouyer was sighted waving at them. That would be an acknowledgement that he had been seen and they would expect him and cover him in. Of course there is one other problem with the hats - perhaps it was buffalo hides being waved. Will we ever really know?
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 20:33:47 GMT -6
No it really can't - DeRudio was VERY specific where he saw Custer, and what/where he showed benteen the 27th....now if Bouyer was waving on Weir Hill, OK. But I thought Bouyer was near Weir Point, signaling Custer in MTC. THAT's A BINGO!! Remember - Weir Hill was 3500' in 1891...and called 'the highest point in that vicinity' 15 years earlier. No doubt Edgerly Peaks are up there in height too, but they are clearly not located or described where DeRudio, Martin and Herendeen, Kanipe and WMRH and Curley and Thompson etc. describe the Custer waving/cheering taking place, and the Hill, nor where they showed/indicated them to be, and showed others. Too many witnesses describe near-exactly the same thing, at around exactly the same place - Weir Hill...they weren't wrong. Be aware we KNOW the landscape, and specifically elevations in some places, inlciding around Reno area - changed due to the road install. Here's Bouyer, via Curley... "When they got to the top of the first of these {edgerly} peaks, they looked across and observed that Reno’s command was fighting. At the sight of this, Bouyer could hardly restrain himself and shouted and waved his hat excitedly for some little time. Undoubtedly Bouyer is the man seen by some in Reno’s command to wave his hat, for Custer never went to the peaks or high ridge"Compare that to DeRudio.. "...I did not see any part of the column of General Custer. The only observation I made was while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieut. Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering and pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was behind the bluff.
Q. Where was that? A. It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek just below where Dr. De Wolf was killed.
Q. Did you see the place generally known as the point where Capt . Weir went to? A. Yes Sir I saw it .
Q. Was General Custer on that point? A . No, on one nearer the river and the highest point on that side. Where I saw General Custer the river comes right under the bluff. The bluff comes in very narrow there hardly wide enough for a horse to stand on in my opinion this map is not correct as to this line of bluffs."And this near exactly as Martin described it. Just picture Sharpshooters Hill and Weir Hill looking like this when traveling the roughly 1/2 mile down the bluffs...(compared to what it looks like now)...
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 21:15:58 GMT -6
WMRH interview with Camp apparently ‘was very brief'. A couple paragraphs; I also have not seen Camp get specific just where on the bluffs WMRH says Custer watched. [Since he didn't believe it, he may not have cared too much.]
"Custer sat on bluff and saw all of Reno’s valley fight."
and, in a 1910 letter to Woodruff:
"Now White Man told me quite a different story, saying that Custer saw Reno’s battle from the bluffs (which is entirely preposterous) and that the three Crows then went as far as Medicine Tail Coulee with Custer and then were given permission to go back, etc. Goes Ahead statement not only disagrees with this but also says that Custer had gone out of sight behind the bluff quite some time before Reno’s fight began."
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography (p. 61). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
Here's WMRH in a 1919 NARRATIVE AS COMPILED BY COLONEL TIM MCCOY:
"Custer and his brother went to the right of us and halted on a small hill. His troops were moving forward below him. Custer turned around as he reached the top of the hill and waved his hat, and the soldiers at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted. Custer then proceeded on up the ridge and his men followed. They were moving rapidly, and the scouts were forced to gallop their ponies sometimes to keep up with them.
At a certain point on the ridge they turned to the right and rode down a coulee in a northern direction. The scouts took up a position on the high bluffs where we could look down into the Sioux camp. As we followed along on the high ground, Custer had come down Medicine Tail Creek and was moving toward the river."
No description of Custer watching, but we do know exactly where they were on the bluffs waving/cheering - Weir Hill/SSR.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 12, 2023 21:56:29 GMT -6
Oh and interesting re: Camp - he used the short distance of Weir Hill from Reno Corral to really hit Benteen and Reno for not doing anything to help Custer. Why not send some scout or some one to the high point and take a look - it being only 1/2 mile from where they were entrenched, and with little opposition at the time. I'll dig that up… Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jul 13, 2023 6:48:32 GMT -6
I'm enjoying these exchanges, thank you. Also, as given, I'm not in best form at the moment so bare with me. It really is good to get fresh input and investigation of this stuff. We are discussing the start in a topic about the end but this works well, I think (sometimes).
The WMRH him issues could simply be poor intermediary and Camp was rooted in the issues which Curtis developed from 1905. Do not doubt that Curtis's concerns filtered through the generals serving and retired who took an interest. Cyrus Townsend Brady kept the fire alight under the battle at that time with such as Godfrey basking in the glow as the majority of senior participants visited the Green.
DeRudio's timing was off in relation to Custer with the entire valley fight completed when he was doing I spy, my God i'm going to fry here in the timber. The five companies were long gone from Weir's Ridge which was subsequently much altered in the views seen today by grading the road through it. The little dip became huge. De Rudio was mistaken in whom he saw and I'd guess that you understand this. At the time and since, the valley battalion survivors were not exactly broadcasting the short duration of their skirmish - Yep Boy...... we took two looks at those hordes of tipi poles above the timber townriver and.... we was gone....... It was what it was. Morale evaporated.
Benteen was caught on the horns of dilemma - that being Weir and Edgerley's Peaks. What could he do? As you suggest, there was a need to get a guidon onto the peaks and signal Custer. Reno knew that. He vanished back down to the river which was bizarre. I've said it before and just said it again. One seriously rattled little jerk - sorry if that upsets but it shouldn't. He hid the seven companies and packtrain from view of the commanders downriver. He misled Terry about events on Reno Hill and left the impression which the period news reported that the entrenchment of Reno Hill was immediate to arrival on it. There was a perfectly reasonable explanation of events, in wait to close up the two battalions, packtrain and rearguard before supporting Custer but that does not explain not telling Custer where he was.
I'm still pecking through your recent flurry, listening to Big Country (Buffalo Skinners album) and low energy (tired) but plodding through. Woodriff was one of many CW Horse artillerists of note. Gibbon was originally an artillery guy as well and there is an obscure book on the art, by him.
One way of looking at Benteen is the quiver. Was it half full or half empty. Reno was going nowhere so..... split forces again? He wasn't that kind of guy.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 13, 2023 7:11:02 GMT -6
As I am I - learning a lot!! And gaining much confidence in the goings-on we are discussing. Hope you get better ASAP!
Nope - WAY too many people corroborate it, at least the 'I saw Custer and others' part. Again, seems it is you, not them, who are wrong. Timing - I haven't explored timing enough, but so many witnesses were NOT ALL WRONG on what happened where. In fact - for such crazy incidents around them - surprising to me so many agree in/on such detail! He says he saw Custer 5-10 minutes after Reno deployment...is HIS timing off? Maybe. Maybe also it needs a re-think...
Coinidence that at the RCOI, it was Herendeen placed Custer exactly at Weir Hill based on his estimation of timing when Reno left the timber... "Q...how near was General Custer to his battlefield when Major Reno left the timber with his command? A) It would be just a guess, depending on how fast he was traveling. He ought to have been beyond Major Reno’s position on the hill, about half a mile."
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Post by montrose on Jul 13, 2023 7:15:21 GMT -6
MAJ Reno waited until the trailing two battalions arrived before moving to make contact with the enemy. US forces had several wounded men, others dismounted due to horse KIA/IA. They had to organize litter parties to carry the wounded. Even before this was done, MAJ Reno initiated a forward movement.
Hero and his allies believe Reno should have abandoned the wounded, the mules, and the slow and rushed chaotically north. Vincent Charlie shows what Hero wanted to happen. MAJ Reno showed the sound battlefield judgment and sense that LTC Custer did not have.
Note that the north to south theory also is based on companies C, I and L also abandoning their wounded as they move from last stand hill to Calhoun Hill.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 13, 2023 7:23:52 GMT -6
Agreed Montrose - I give Reno/benteen a pass on moving everyone 'immediately'. I think Camp's point was there was a high point(s) 1/2 mile away - couldn't they 'send a scout or any one the less then 3 minutes it would have taken' to SEE what Custer was up to. Now Camp does confirm the view from Weir Hill in his notes - i will have to revisit what they might have seen... EHHHHHH EHHHHH EHHHH Oh well...Reno/Benteen 1 Camp 0... See attached... Although again - maybe not.."fully half of custer's men were slain within full view of this high ground." Must be here he is including SSR. He can 'see the monument, even after 5pm with binos'. Attachments:
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Post by montrose on Jul 13, 2023 7:31:07 GMT -6
The following is an extract from FM3-21.71 on actions a platoon takes after contact. Note how this exactly shows the actions of MAJ Reno and CPT Benteen and CPT McDougall. A reminder: G Company only had 3 survivors reach the linkup point.
4-27. CONSOLIDATION AND REORGANIZATION
Once enemy resistance on the objective has ceased, the platoon quickly consolidates to defend against a possible counterattack. The platoon establishes security on or near the objective. The platoon leader assesses and reports the status of ammunition, casualties, and equipment (ACE).
a. Consolidation. Consolidation consists of actions taken to secure the objective and defend against an enemy counterattack. The platoon leader determines the most likely enemy avenue of approach based on his assessment of terrain and enemy information. This analysis is conducted before execution of an attack and the enemy's most likely counterattack route is posted on maps and disseminated throughout the platoon. During consolidation, the platoon leader determines if his sections and squads are positioned according to the original plan or to changes in the factors of METT-TC. Once the platoon is positioned to defend against an enemy counterattack, section and squad leaders create sector sketches and submit them to the platoon leader. This information allows the platoon leader to verify the location and orientation of elements when the situation does not allow him to walk the entire security perimeter. As a minimum, section and squad leaders provide the platoon leader with the location and sectors of their key weapons. The platoon leader must use the troop leading procedures to plan and prepare. He ensures the platoon is ready to—
Eliminate enemy resistance on the objective. Establish security beyond the objective by securing areas that may be the source of enemy direct fires or enemy artillery observation. Establish additional security measures such as OPs and patrols. Prepare for and assist the passage of follow-on forces (if required). Continue to improve security by conducting other necessary defensive actions. (These steps, which are outlined in Chapter 5 of this manual, include engagement area development, direct fire planning, and battle position preparation). Adjust FPF. Secure EPWs NOTE: The platoon leader and platoon sergeant in M2A3-equipped units must resist the temptation to rely on digital position updates and sector sketches as the sole means of ensuring their defense is established. They must walk the perimeter and make on-the-spot adjustments. b. Reorganization. Reorganization, normally conducted concurrently with consolidation, consists of actions taken to prepare for follow-on operations. During reorganization, leaders identify and report losses. Section and squad leaders update their ACE reports. Section leaders also provide information on their fuel status. The platoon sergeant consolidates the reports, updates all platoon status reports, and sends a consolidated platoon report to the company team commander and first sergeant. Based on the information in this consolidated status report, the platoon reorganizes personnel and redistributes ammunition, equipment, and other mission-essential items. As with consolidation, the platoon leader must plan and prepare for reorganization as he conducts his troop leading procedures. He ensures the platoon is prepared to—
Provide appropriate care and or medical treatment and evacuation of casualties, as necessary. Cross-level personnel and adjust task organization as required. Conduct resupply operations, including rearming and refueling. Redistribute ammunition. Conduct required maintenance. Reestablish chain of command.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 13, 2023 7:43:53 GMT -6
Taking down Harlequin ducks Constantly updated.Taking down Harlequin Ducks. with footnotesWhat looks straight is most probably trending left or right. More repeatedly, left. What may be straight is quite prone to be oblique quartering left or right. Trap Shooting Secrets, James Russell,1997, p38. books.google.co.uk/books?id=aY7FZ9qqClkC&printsec=frontcover&output=html_textAuthored by the United States Board on Breech-loading Small-arms; United States Army Ordnance Dept: Report of the Board of officers appointed in pursuance of the act of Congress approved June 6, 1872, for the purpose of selecting a breech-system for the muskets and carbines of the military service, together with their report upon the subject of trowel-bayonets; (1873) archive.org/stream/reportofboardof00unit#page/22/mode/2upInterview with Curley, September 30, 1913, Thomas Le Forge, Interpreter
The four Crows remained with Custer until we got to ridge south of Medicine Tail coulee. Here Hairy Moccasin, White Man Runs Him, and Goes Ahead left us, and Mitch and I went on. We joined Custer on Medicine Tail Coulee as he was advancing toward the village. He did not halt after we joined him. He had all the bugles blowing for some time, the purpose of which I did not understand [perhaps he was having them play Garry OwenWMC].I'm trying tto figure out what happened to the syntax with the cut and pasted quote...... sticky fingers and spilt coffee.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 13, 2023 10:01:47 GMT -6
YES!!!! You got it!
Curley when on site with Camp goes into exquisite detail about it, and Custer's route (as does martin).
So here's WMRH version of it - the Custer sighting, and the scouts getting left behind as the troops went down South coulee....now this obviously conflicts re: (what I have seen of) Curtis a wee bit, huh? But of course agrees quite well with Hairy Moccasin (and everyone else).
WMRH "Custer and his brother went to the right of us and halted on a small hill. His troops were moving forward below him. Custer turned around as he reached the top of the hill and waved his hat, and the soldiers at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted. Custer then proceeded on up the ridge and his men followed. They were moving rapidly, and the scouts were forced to gallop their ponies sometimes to keep up with them.
At a certain point on the ridge they turned to the right and rode down a coulee in a northern direction. The scouts took up a position on the high bluffs where we could look down into the Sioux camp. As we followed along on the high ground, Custer had come down Medicine Tail Creek and was moving toward the river."
WMRH also says Curley did not go that far, so... somebody is...mistaken when it comes to finally getting to the end of the bluffs.
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 13, 2023 18:15:53 GMT -6
“Forgotten Ravine” of “Forgotten Coulee”.
If you refer to my posts on this thread (dated July 9th (2023) at 11:41am, July 10th at 7:55am, and July 10th at 1: 59pm) you will see a (what I consider a significant geologic feature) a ravine or coulee shown on the maps of 1876 and in the aerial photograph taken in the 1930’s. In the current google satellite map of the LSH area that “Forgotten Ravine” (that's what I call it!) looks to be filled in and in a definite curved shape (which would be difficult to see on the aerial photograph of the 1930’s – but can still be discerned in that picture).
When compared to a google satellite view of that same area today, that geologic feature is not obviously there anymore.
My thoughts. It is the only feature on LSH that runs in a (more or less) north to south direction. It would be the only natural “cover” available to soldiers to defend against the native Americans that were overrunning LSH coming from the south (from the river towards LSH).
I believe that if there are any remains of soldiers yet to be found, they would be in that area (probably buried closer to where that “Forgotten Ravine” intersects with the Cemetery Ridge coulee).
I have just come back from my first trip to the battlefield (hurrah!). I took a google map of where I thought the ravine originally was. This was determined by the markers (zoomed in on google maps) that are placed along the “deep ravine” trail that are closest to the suspected “forgotten ravine”. Upon walking the “deep ravine” trail in the area I think the forgotten ravine was (by locating the arrangement of markers in the area as shown on goggle maps), there is a definite “dip” in the terrain between the markers I located. Possibly indicating a point where that part of the ravine or coulee was filled in (and through the years the dirt has “settled in” into the former geologic depression?).
Now if it was filled in between the 1930’s and probably the late 1950’s (just a guess) the question is “why”? Maybe because the ravine area closest to the Cemetery Ridge ravine was filled in with dirt to cover the remains of soldiers?
Now what that may have done, from a geologic standpoint, is to prevent the ravine from emptying into the cemetery ridge coulee. So now the ravine fills up with water and presents a kind of large pond on the battlefield every spring.
So maybe the park staff just decided to fill it in with dirt (from other construction going on in the area). Perhaps at that time they had no idea of the significance that ravine (or coulee) could have played in the battle?
Just a thought (or maybe just a wild guess!). Probably totally wrong. But the trip to the Battlefield was great!
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 13, 2023 20:58:42 GMT -6
Good stuff, lakota!
Can you save the correct image from the link you posted, and mark it up - maybe in Paint, and post it here so it is easier to see exactly the spot you mean?
I think it be cool to take a closer look!
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Post by lakotadan on Jul 14, 2023 5:23:29 GMT -6
Thank you johnson1941! I have included the two maps from 1876 with the area I think the “Forgotten Ravine” is circled in blue. The top map seems somewhat to scale, the second map is not to scale. I couldn’t include the aerial image because it is copyrighted. However, if you check out the 5th picture in the below link, you will see the photograph. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/strickenfield.htmNow, if you draw a line straight from the left-hand side of the fence from the house in the middle of the picture (it will run south across Cemetery Coulee into the forgotten ravine), you will see the ravine I am talking about (it just about drops you right into it!). It appears just below a darker area in the picture. If you orient all the maps with the aerial photograph (with LSH placed at the top) you can see the “Forgotten Ravine”! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 14, 2023 7:33:40 GMT -6
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